Moment of Clarity

198 replies [Last post]
Don't count the number of people.

We never know who will, at some point, return to AA after more research. I am a 2 time repeater and have accumulated more time since. You cannot count, for whatever reason, how many came and went in our program. It stays open to all who have an honest desire to stop drinking, even if it takes more than once.

Principles before personalities is right on!

RE: Don't count?

We must return AA to a fellowship which remains open to all
alcoholics with a desire to stop drinking, whether that
desire is honest or not. In the pamphlet "Three talks to
medical societies", Bill writes that the only the the only
thing we ask of the alcoholic approaching us is a desire
on his/her part to get well. We push alcoholics away by
inplying that an "honest" anything is required. We have
a count today in AA of just over two million. A Grapevine
article called it "TWO MILLION STRONG". We had almost
two and a half million members twenty years ago. We should/
could/would have six to eight million members today.
Dogma and distortion have almost ruined a perfect solution
for the "cure" for alcoholism. ANONYMOUS

Three Talks to Medical Societies

When Bill was giving the presentation to these
doctors, He commented: You may ask, Just how does this
thing work. Bill says that he cannot fully answer that
question. He said: We can only tell you what we do and
just what seems to happen to us. I believe Bill is
saying that even he does not know exactly how AA works.
If Bill were alive today he could request a copy
of "How It Works" from our General Service Office.
And I repeat my conviction that the introduction
of the reading of HIW aloud at A.A. meetings was a horrible
blunder. Chanting and reading the 24hr book aloud at
meetings are a close second and third mistake.
My comments are not direct quotes. I do not have
the pamphlet in front of me. ANONYMOUS

Don't count the people??

Bill W. was always counting heads. This has been done in
AA up to this day. We pay for these surveys. These numbers
are a good indication of our effectiveness, or lack of it.
When I first saw the numbers showing the loss of half a
million members in the early 1990's I could see that we
were failing to help very many new alcoholics. We are
just helping ourselves, churning. I fear that we will
indeed just stop the counting. That will be easier than
admitting our faults. ANONYMOUS

Counting Heads

Mabe some of them folks is getting sober in RR or that Malibu thing on tv. After all that "isn't a 12step program--it works!"


Joined: 2011-06-07

Your tiresome editorializing all over the different I-say sites is becoming a real boar.
Nobody in AA should be telling anyone what to do, and if they are they should be gently corrected, pointing to page 59 in the BB where it clearly states " Here are the steps we took, which are suggested as a program of recovery". Many of us have (like you) seen family and friends die from this disease and we are hurt every time it happens and it reinforces the deadly nature of this disease. Some people need to hear that these are just suggestion much like its only a suggestion that you pull the rip-cord of your parachute.
WE DO NOT push anybody away. They stay or they don't, their choice. They've hit bottom or they haven't. They want what we have or they don't. To do 90 in 90 IS useful in establishing a habit of attendance but it's still only a suggestion. Reading the Preamble, How it works and the 12 Traditions is something the newcomer need to hear and yes They are the most important person in the room (not you). Keep coming back it works are not chants and the Serenity prayer is that, a prayer
I don't know if your just a dry drunk or a bleeding Deacon or you just want every thing done your way. Read page 61. Do you see your self in there?
My little town has over 50 meeting on any given day One of them is call the Happy Heathens, If you don't like the way things are being done in the meeting you attend then I SUGGEST you start your own and do it your way and see who comes. Just a thought

"Vital Spiritual Experience"

It states in the Big Book, that for an Alcoholic of the Hopeless Variety, like myself..Need to have what is called a"spiritual experience." Now, some may have a "burning-bush" experience, or something more subtle. Regaurdless, this is vital in having any real chance of staying sober, and in my experience, proved to be true. I am a Re-tread in the program of AA.. and as hard as it was to put my Ego aside, and honetly concede to myself I was tired of being enslaved by the Hideous Four Horsemen, I had this vital experience. I said the most humble, honest prayer i'd ever said before. I felt as if God himself, or the Spirit wrapped his arms around me. This experience gave me the Faith, the power that I did not have in my own Will.. to come back into the rooms of AA.
I know now, to this day. I completed step one Honestly, and thoroughly enough, to have complete faith that this Power(God of my understanding) restored my to sanity. Constant contact with my Higher Power has been a daily task, seeking for guidance, and humility along the way. Meetings are an Insurance Payment on my sobriety, and keep my Ego in check. --I am forever grateful for having this experience, because I was at my jumping off point. Could not imagine my life with or without my best friend, and worst enemy..Alcohol.
I hope someone can relate to this message, and know sobriety is possible, with complete Surrender, and for seeking a relationship with his/her Higher Power, whatever that may be. I know my will and my way were killing me. I needed a new Coach. My best thinking kept me drinking. My higher power loves us all, and would not want us to be destroying our minds, bodies and souls like some of us have!

Deadly Nature

Yes, many of us have seen friends and family members die from alcoholism and drug addiction. Many of these could have found a new life in A.A. and N.A. And I believe they would/could have found it if we had just let them search, instead of cramming our beliefs down their throats.
I find it a bit strange that you would SUGGEST that I
"start my own" meeting, and then criticize me for doing so. "Keep coming back, it works if you work it, is a chant when it is done by the group. Some groups actually hold on
to you and pump your arms up and down while chanting.
The suffering and deaths of so many, reinforces my
belief that we are failing to help them. Dr. Silkworth,
Bill W. and God in his mercy, left us a solution which
rarely fails.
I will agree that newcomers ought to be exposed
to the traditions. They need to know about our anonymous
nature. They need to know that the only requirement for
membership (full membership) is a desire to stop drinking.
They need to know that we need them as much as they may
need us. They need to be assured that we will not impose
any of our religious beliefs on them. We were never intended to be a religion. (Of course most of us know
that has happened. Judges have ruled that A.A. has
become a religion).
I believe that if we can understand why Bill and
his friends rejected the 24 hr book, we can develop
an understanding of why the reading of How It Works
aloud at meetings has been so devestating to our
fellowship. If we can get rid of the chanting, maybe
we can regain the respect of the general public. But
chanting will not stop by itself. There are just too
many members who have no idea how foolish chanting is.
I had many of your same beliefs for about three
decades. I could have written many of your messages,
word for word. But when I saw those membership numbers
in front of me, that all changed. ANONYMOUS

Joined: 2012-03-04
Re: tiresome

I don’t find the writer the least bit tiresome, quite the reverse in fact. I am enlightened by what he says. It is good for me to know that there are others who also share my concerns. If he reads this, then I say thank you.

It is easy to accept the truth and to speak it when it brings comfort. It is easy to resent the truth and to silence it when it brings discomfort. Truth, comforting or discomforting, will always come out in the end. The growth and well being of AA will always depend upon how well each new generation is willing to accept the truth, take inventory of itself and then to correct its faults.

I am grateful that I got sober in the days before the internet. Back then there was no coercion for newcomers to get a sponsor, or for them to take the steps before they were ready to. The 1940s AA slogans “Easy does it.” “Live and let live.” still meant something. Newcomers decided in their own time and manner. There was no conformity to ritual, yet all the meetings were more or less the same. There were no special purpose groups, no religious emotionalism, no outside literature, no speaker recordings, no greeters, no holding of hands; no question of unity.

People talked with humility, of their sordid drinking, of themselves, without exhibition. They did not talk of what their sponsor said, nor did they entertain; nor pride themselves with their knowledge of the Big Book. They did not pride themselves with their having had a spiritual experience, nor how they pray and meditate; nor did they pride themselves on how many years they had been sober. There was no sponsor worship, no old timer worship; no guru worship.

I have seen the changes in AA and I do not think they are good. These changes are producing emotional experiences instead of spiritual awakenings; dry alcoholics with half cracked egos, emotionally dependent on amateurish teachers and preachers; emotionally defensive of the dogmas they have been taught. They have not yet experienced the truly open mind, humility and tolerance that is associated with a spiritual ego deflation at depth. This writer gives me hope that AA still does have a good future, if it can but stay on its spiritual foundation of placing traditional principles before the personalities of those who seek to gain power, prestige or money.

There is another alternative to being a dry drunk or a bleeding deacon and that is to be good leader. So, I hope the writer continues, regardless of those who, as Bill W. put it: “pitch gobs of rumors, gossip, and general scuttle-butt to gain their ends --- all for the good of A.A., of course!” Not all is in the Big Book. It is but a beginning.

(Bill W. quote from “Leadership in AA: Ever a vital need” Concept IX, The AA Service Manual Combined with the Twelve Concepts for World Service pp 36-40)

Thank you

I had hope that there were others who shared my concerns.
I feel that most who find today's A.A. disturbing have just
walked away. I sadly do not know how to reach them, and
suspect that many who could have been saved have died. But
there have to be others who have stayed as I did, just
accepting the changes as inevitable.
We did not have greeters at the door. Every member was
a greeter. And very few speakers were recorded. It just
was not even considered. There was a drive in my state
to record speakers' stories if they have over thirty
years (for the area archives). I considered it, as I
still suffer from self importance sometimes. Then I
realized that my story is not that important. Every
A.A. member has a story, and most of us love to tell
There was no coercion for newcomers to get a sponsor
or to work the steps before they were ready. I hope I
have your permission to use some of your words such as
amateurish teachers and preachers, and being emotionally
defensive of the dogmas they have been taught.
As you can guess I sometimes consider just walking
away from all this controversy. But I will probably stay to the end. Thanks again for the encouragement. You probably
know that your letter was posted in two categories, this one and STEPS. Thank you I-SAY! ANONYMOUS

Joined: 2012-03-04
re: Thank you

Thanks for your reply. You’re welcome to use anything in my posts. Yes, newcomers were given a good informal welcome at meetings by an unorganized collective. It didn’t need organized doormen to scare them away. Like you, I have considered walking away from the hassle and I know a number that have. But if everyone did this then there would be nothing left. I’ve decided to stay. I know there’s a few in my area who can see the writing on the wall, who are also doing their bit. I see you and others on AA Grapevine. Your posts have inspired me to continue and I’m sure they have inspired many others. I’m glad to find again good “Fellowship of the Spirit” in your posts (The Language of the Heart p 384), since I don’t find it so much in my locality anymore. You are definitely not alone in your concerns and I believe there are many who share them, yet remain silent.

Relating to Tradition Two and Concepts V and IX, if AA is to continue without descending into anarchy, then more people need to speak up, because the power behind the expression of the group conscience needs always to be greater than an individual alcoholic’s power driven ego and greater than power driven egos combining to form a tyranny of very small minorities invested with absolute power.

“…the greatest danger to democracy would always be the “tyranny of apathetic, self seeking, uniformed, or angry majorities….” (Concept V)

“ ..The well-heard minority, therefore, is our chief protection against an uninformed, misinformed, hasty or angry majority…” (Concept V)

Therefore a well heard minority, such as your self, is our chief protection against

“…the even worse tyranny of very small minorities invested with absolute power.” (Concept V)

You’re not the only one questioning speaker recordings. This member regards some of them as “a perversion of the spirit of anonymity”. I agree with them. The article can be retrieved from the AA Grapevine archive: “Unrecorded A member questions the practice of recording AA speakers”, AA Grapevine August 2007

I think you have done AA a great service and thank you for your persistence. A true friend of Bill W.

Concept V and IX pages 20 and 34:

RE: Tiresome

I just want to know one thing. Did you get sober using the 12 steps or not?

RE: RE: Tiresome

A co-worker and I were drinking friends. It came out that
he had been to AA meetings. I asked him about it several
times. We were drinking one evening and I mentioned it again. He said we would go to a meeting that evening. We
were fairly drunk by meeting time so we had a designated
driver. We didn't want to drive to an AA meeting drunk.
As drunk as I was I knew there was something of great
value in the room that night.
My co-worker lost his job, due to drinking and I lost
track of him. I continued to drink, but thought of AA
often. I really wanted to stop drinking for good. I
could go for short periods of time without it, but I
always started drinking again. I went to another
meeting the following year and stayed sober for a
four month period. When I picked up again, my drinking
was worse than it had ever been; the progression was
evident. I drank heavily for a month and managed to
stop, due to a family tragedy. I was determined that
I was not going to drink again. I feared that I would
die if I drank again. I fought the craving, and the
merciless obsession for two months until I just
could not fight any more. I had an open bottle of liquor
in my hand when I took the first three steps. I said
aloud "Dear God, if there is a God, In the name of
Christ please help me! My feeling was that I was turning
my life over to You, whether You accept me or not. At
that moment the desire to drink was lifted and has never returned. I knew then what an alcoholic was and that I am one. I realized months later that I had taken the first
three steps. But I had no one pushing them on me. I had
taken them of my own free will. John Barleycorn was the
enforcer. Great suffering was the advocate.
Two days later I was in Alcoholics Anonymous and there
I found the great love written about in one of our traditions. Great suffering and great love are to be our
disciplanarians; WE NEED NO OTHERS!
In the first three years I heard the steps mentioned
by speakers, and the twelve steps shade appeared on the
meeting room walls. No one pointed to them and said: This is what you must do. At almost five years, my back was
against the wall and I felt that it was time to do the
fourth and fifth steps, which helped me greatly. And I
have continued with the rest of the steps, repeating
steps four and five with a priest I had become friends
with at about 20 years. Year 19 was difficult, and I
knew from experience that they would help me again.
I believe that if I had been told at those first
couple of meetings that I had to find God and find Him
now, and all the other "suggestions" given to the newcomer
today, I would have turned my back on AA and I would have
died. But that first meeting gave me hope. I saw alcoholics
who were not drinking any more. I listened to their stories and I believed them. I wondered if it would ever happen for me, but it did happen and is still happening. I have lived
a life beyond anything I ever expected, much better than I ever deserved. I hope you didn't expect a yes or no answer.
I believe I was given the gift of a spitirtual awakening
as the result of the first three steps. I continue to
practice these and the rest of the steps in my daily life.
I do hope that answers your question. ANONYMOUS

WoW! So you did work the steps--eventually....

.....and I find it odd that if someone would have said find God and may you find Him now that you would have turned your face to the wall and died considering by your own admission that God is the one you cried out to in your pain and that you worked the first 3 steps!! Amazing how we say and do things we don't even know we are saying or doing isn't it?

Ray C.


If I had been told to get a sponsor, work those steps with
him, find God and find him Now!, plus the God filled 24 hr
book, and the chanting and holding hands and praying, I
would have realized that this was just another religion or
some type of cult. I had already tried religion several
times. I was never in a cult, except for today's AA.
Please, no offense. I am just trying to get a point


You spend more time on the computer than I do. Could you
spend a little more time rephrasing the question? I am saying that we push members away by the demands made of
them, new and old. If I had been told at my first, or
second meeting to get a sponsor, work these steps, do
90 in 90, find God and find Him now, hold hands with us
while we pray for you, I don't think I would have ever
returned to an AA meeting. I don't believe I would have
ever been "ready" for all that. And I don't think I am
muuch different than any other alcoholic approaching
our fellowship today. But I do ask you to write the
comment in simpler terms. ANONYMOUS

BoW Wow

Let me splain it this way. I think we are in agreement on some things. I don't like the chanting because it is too sect like. I don't approve of reading non-AA material in meetings because I think keeping it AA will keep it uniform and will help keep religion out of AA.If people are allowed to read whatever they want some will be reading the Bible, Koran, etc. The 24hr book is not approved literature. But no one can say what a person can use outside of the meeting for their own personal recovery including: the Bible, the 24hr, self help books, tapes, whatever they want. I also see a trend in my area. We have always had a custom of giving the 1st time meeting goer a 1st step meeting. Now, the BB says, and I will paraphrase so don't get your undies in a bundle, tell the necomer your story in general terms so they will know you know about the drinking game, what it was like, what happened and what it is like now, (for you! we cannot tell "OUR" story). In my area it seems like people in the 1st step are not doing this. They are doing what you are talking about and barking at the newcomer about 90/90, (then what? You Graduate?), getting a sponsor, ( I did not get one until 3 months sober because I went to a meeting every day and waited until I heard someone I thought I could trust and asked him to be my sponsor), don't drink and go to meetings, meeting makers make it, ( I don't like these two because not drinking and going to meetins alone is not the program and the only thing meeting makers make is meetings. If you are not working the steps you are not working the program and meeting sobriety alone is very precarious sobriety). I don't think this is what we are supposed to be telling the newcomer.
We part ways on the BB and reading HIW. The book was written to put the program down in writting so the history of how to get sober was preserved for future generations and to send out to alcoholics a basic text, road map, design for living, guide book or whatever you chose to call it so they could read it and sober up. (This protects the program from people like you and I who think we know what is bes for everybody)! This book and the 12 steps is our program. Just because some folks may have sobered up in a slightly different manor doesn't matter. The majority of folks sober in AA used this book and the 12 steps! Reading something out of this book will not hurt anyone who has an honest desire to get sober! If they don't want to hear it they are not ready! How many meetings did you go to and listen to HIW before you decided it was the wrong thing to do? Maybe it is chap 5 and you say they should be read in order. Some people say the 12 steps should be taken in order but Bill W said you can take any of the steps you are able to take at the time! I think making it clear to the newcomer that this is a spiritual program and not a religous program and that the word God means God as you understand him is important. But telling a newcomer they need to find (their) God is not going to hurt him. (When Ebby to this to Bill a light went on)! Having a HP and getting ourselves out of the center of the universe is the very crux of AA. This is not my opinion it is fact from the BB and other AA literature.

Ray C.

telling a newcomer

Telling a newcomer they need to find God, (their God or
any God), is a tragic mistake. The AA technique which reaches the suffering alcoholic is this: If you have found
God or a higher power, tell the newcomer that you have
done this and tell him how you did it. Do not even imply
that they have to do the same. Leave shame and guilt out
of the equation. Attraction not promotion. Absolutely
no promotion. This is the formula given to Bill W in
1935, just prior to Bill's trip to Akron. This is the
technique which worked with Dr. Bob. In three talks to
medical societies Bill called it a "gadget".
Chapter Five is a very important chapter, as well as
all the other chapters. Bill placed "How It Works" in
a very special place for a precise timed effect. Reading
this aloud at meetings is a very serious mistake.
If you do not understand this, I ask you to read
it again, study our history, the cart before the horse
IDEA. It will begin to make sense. We must do this.
Alcoholics are dying while we delay. Their friends
and families are suffering, needlessly. ANONYMOUS

RE: bow wow

Sincere thanks for the splaination. Just a couple of
brief comments, please. (When Ebby told this to Bill, a
light went on). When Ebby told Bill he had gotten religion,
Bill was crushed. Bill writes; Ebby didn't try to pressure
me or evangelize me, and pretty soon he left. "Somewhere
else" Bill wrote that Ebby stayed for hours talking about
old times. The light did not come on until Bill was in his
hospital bed crying out to God, I believe this was about
four weeks after Bills meeting with Ebby.
I believe many, maybe most alcoholics come to their
first AA meeting without a sincere desire to stop drinking.
That is why the word honest was removed from the literature. I doubt that many who approach AA are really
ready. I believe that it is up to us to allow them to become ready, helping them whereever we can. I do think
we push many away by the demands we make of them. (disguised
as suggestions). Do you think we ought to be "suggesting"
that they get a sponsor at their very first meeting? Some
say,"Get a sponsor before you leave the meeting today".
Some groups actually assign sponsors.
I have written ad-nausaum of my opinions and beliefs
on the reading of HOW IT WORKS. The first time it was
read at my meeting in 1980, I had an awful feeling that
it was just not right. Over the years I finally accepted
the reading, and read it aloud many times, standing and
saying This is how it works! I called the steps D...ed
well betters. I did not know that Bill had written that even
he could not fully explain how AA works. And when I found
Bill's explanation of why he placed chapter five, how it works, in the Big Book, the light went on. As I have written
at least a hundred times, I think this was the worst
mistake AA ever made. I had no real understanding of Dr.
Silkworth's "cart before the horse" idea to Bill. Today I
understand why that was so important. Sorry, someday I
may learn to be brief. And I am truly grateful for AA
members like you. Few members have that passion.
I have an AA friend who will soon complete 30 years
of continuous sobriety. Just this morning he accused me,
indirectly, of trying to put God on the shelf. I believe
that God places himself on the podium, in full view for anyone who wants or needs Him. I ought not tell anyone: That One is God; Find Him Now! Leave that decision entirely up to each individual alcoholic member. Sorry, again. ANONYMOUS

Great discussion

After reading the last couple of posts, I am grateful for Ray and anonymous. It reminds me of an AA talk. There where 3 of us that got up and shared our experience,strenght and hope. We were all a little different, but similar in that we had all worked the steps as a program of recovery.
After our stories, one of the audience quietly came up after the meeting and said after 7 years of being in and out of aa that this was the best mtg he had ever been to.
When relfecting on this during my evening meditation it came to me that it was the 3 different views that made that talk special! the audience could compare and contrast and come up with there own conclusions! No one member was saying this is the only way, just 3 of us saying how we did it.
Now if 2 out of the 3 of us gets drunk or goes on an emotional bender, the audience can choose for themselves who to listen to.
I read in AA comes of Age that out of the 28 stories in the first addition, 15 authors remiained sober, 5 drank not to return, and the remainder-8 got sober again after a slip. AACA didn't say who was who, but I would assume some of the stories of the slippers didn't make it into the second addition!

Thanks again for posting all the great discussions!


The way I read it the light went on for Bill when Ebby said, Why don't you choose your own conception of God?
Remember? The scales of prejudice fell away?
I wrote b4 I don't demand anything of anyone in AA. The chapter is Working With Others not Fixing Others or even Helping Others. All we can do is lay the kit of spiritual tools at their feet for their inspection.
The crux of the AA program is to get a HP and get our selfish, self centered selves out of the way! That HP is up to the individual.
Also, I see you finally wrote the "may you" in that quote about finding God. It is a wish, not a command!
If you are an atheist and got sober in AA, God bless you! (Pun intended). But you must have used something as your HP correct?

Ray C.

RE: tiresome

Messages like this sadden me. And the saddest part is that it could be written by most of the members of today's A.A., and that I could have written most of it
myself ten years ago. My head was pulled out of the sand
by events around me. I, too, thought A.A. was alive and
I did take your advice and started a meeting where we
do not read HIW, we do no chanting, and we do not do the
ring around the rosy hold hands and pray closing. We meet
every day at the local club and we are today usually a
dozen or more. I also started two LANGUAGE OF THE HEART
meetings. One has the format of the 1970's, and I am
working on the other one. A friend started a step meeting
using the 1970's format a couple years ago. Ten or
more show up every Sat morning.
I can add "real boar" to the list of names I have
been called. Believe me, I have been called worse. I
have been assaulted verbally and physically, but I
still continue. But I will give up soon. My wife laughs
when I say that, for late in the day I promise her
that I will quit. But early the next morning I am
back on the computer again. But I am almost done. I have
written my concerns over and over, both here and in
handwritten letters to the Grapevine.
This information will be available when AA members
and our leaders decide to use it. How is that for a
Bleeding Deacon's dry drunk EGO? Not much humility here!
I have used that parachute analogy more times than
I care to admit. I often wonder how many alcoholics have
died because of that one. I have read HOW IT WORKS many
times at meetings, saying "this is how it works". I found
out later that Bill W wrote in Three talks, that even
he could not fully explain how AA works.
I do believe we push suffering alcoholics away by the
demands we make of them. You know what they are.
Of all the messages posted on I-SAY not one writer
has agreed that reading HIW aloud at meetings is
harmful. But if you study Dr. Silkworths cart before
the horse idea, Well, there it is! A full explanation.
But you have to be concerned enough about AA to investigate
before contempt.
If we had continued growing at an acceptable rate, we
would/could/should have eight million members in AA today.
You know that we are stagnant at two million. Where are
the other six million. Those are the ones we have pushed
away by the way our meetings today are conducted. ANONYMOUS

Joined: 2011-06-07
Bill also wrote

Bill also wrote:"Our chief responsibility to the newcomer is an adequate presentation of the program. If he does nothing or argues, we do nothing but maintain our own sobriety. If he starts to move ahead, even a little, with an open mind, we then break our necks to help in every way we can."
In my home group an adequate presentation to the newcomer is to read. The preamble, How it works, and the Twelve Traditions at the start of every meeting. YOU are not the most important person in the room. The newcomer is !!!!! If your 70's format works for you fine. My only problem with your long winded diatribes,your distortion of facts and figures has always been your insistence on impossing your limited and narrow minded viewpoint and experience on the greater group of AA. This will be my last word on the matter and I will try to Place Principles Over Personalities once again.

RE: Bill also wrote.

The reading of the preamble is prettymuch a given. The
Traditions can be read explaining our guidelines. But if the
preamble has been read slowly and clearly, it contains most
of the traditions, except the traditions about our anonymous nature. Reading "How It Works" is time consuming
and may be confusing to newcomers. For a member who attends
a meeting every day it may become boring and lose its
value. And I do believe that chapter five is of great value.
Reading what we call "How It Works" aloud at meetings
is in contrast with the "cart before the horse" IDEA offered to Bill W. by Dr. Silkworth in the spring of 1935
prior to Bill's trip to Akron. Bill states many times that without Dr. Silkworth's IDEA, AA could never have been born.
Recovery from this illness is based on our mutual need
for each other, elder and newcomer. The newcomer is vital
to the future life of AA. Without the elder there would
be no AA for the newcomer to come to. I do not understand
how you can say that the newcomer is the most important
person in the room. Telling the newcomer that he/she is
the most important person in the room is hardly deflating
the ego. The hierarchy and patriarchy status of AA members
needs to be eliminated. We all come together as absolute
equals. Bill explains this in AACA page 70. Before you end
this discussion I ask you to investigate Dr. Silkworth' idea. I would appreciate a list of my distortion of facts
and figures. I don't claim to be perfect or an expert.
I have no "axe to grind". My concern is for the future of
the fellowship of Alcoholics Anonymous. I watched a lot of our mistakes as they were taking place. Bill often wrote
about blunders A.A. could make. I find that we have made
practically all of them. ANONYMOUS

1970's format?

I am very interested in the 1970's fromat. If you could post a link or something along those lines where I could view some, I would greatly appreciate it!
I also very much enjoy reading your posts, so please keep it up!
I will also try to track down a local archivist to see if they have some formats to look over.
Thanks again!

RE; 1970's format?

You had to be there! Honestly, except that would make
you elderly. I met an old AA friend last week at a beginners meeting. She came in in 1971, the year after I
got sober. She also has stayed sober all that time. After
the meeting (her first time at that meeting), I asked her
how she liked the meeting. She replied, It seemed kind of
empty. She commented on how reverent the meetings were
when we came in. I pointed out to her that our fellowship
almost tripled in membership in the decade of the 70's.
Our AA membership increased from about 300,000 to 900,000
in that decade.
At several meetings I would pine aloud for the way
meetings used to be. An AA friend suggested that I start a
meeting patterned after the meetings as I remembered them.
We did just that and we called it The Format of the 1970's
meeting. It is basically following Dr. Bob's advice to
"keep it simple. I will briefly describe the meeting, but
it is written all over the I-SAY forum. No readings other
than the preamble to open the meeting. We cite the
serenity prayer. If our members consider that praying that
is a personal choice. This particular meeting is a Language of the Heart meeting. We read an article written by Bill
W. origionally printed in the AAGRAPEVINE. Each member
reads a paragraph or two, simply going around the room.
I suppose this is additional reading, but it is not like
reading the same redundant thing over and over like some
meetings do. After the reading is completed, the basket is passed and discussion begins. We do not go by "show of hands"; we simply go around the room allowing each member
equal time. I have heard that called round robin.
We do absolutely no chanting. Hi! Joe! a response
by the group is chanting. Chanting is a cult or sect
ritual and makes us look foolish or at least a bit weird,
to new members and to our general public. "My name is Joe
and I am an alcoholic" is a simple statement, part of step
one and part of step five. This statement was never meant
to be a greeting or salutation.
You will notice that we do not read "How It Works".
This has been covered extensively on I-SAY. The same
applies to the 24 hr book. If I write about these again
I fear that I-SAY will throw me off this bulletin board.
We end the meeting after the last member has had the
opportunity to share, or the time is up. Closing the meeting
there is no "moment of silence" praying for all and sundry.
I feel that an AA meeting is not the place to pray. I
am a firm believer in prayer, but I pray on my own time.
We close with the Lord's prayer, "or a silent prayer of
your choice". We do not hold hands in what I call the
"ring around the rosy" circle. We all stand by our
chairs. I no longer "hold hands and pray", which I did
join in for many years. I believe coercing new members
to hold hands with strangers can be uncomfortable.
We have made about ten changes in AA at the group
level in the past three decades. I feel that these
"distortions" are the cause of AA's lack of growth.
When I write about lack of growth, I am writing about
human suffering, unnecessary suffering. We are failing
the very sick, when we have the means to help them.
Sorry, there is no link, and you will not find
much of this in the archives. Practically all of these
concerns are posted on I-SAY. And I-SAY is a free
service provided by the AAGRAPEVINE. Support it by
subscribing to the AAGRAPEVINE. I appreciate the
posting more than you know. As my AREA delegate wrote
me, Keep sounding the alarm; maybe we can get this ship turned around. ANONYMOUS

where did you get the list of years and membership numbers?

could you or someone who knows post where to find the yearly estimated membership list you posted. I can only find the 2010 estimated membership numbers in the aa factfile. It would be great to bring a hard copy of the 1935-2010 estimated yearly membership to our group conscience for discusion.

membership numbers

It is too late. "They" have revised the list. Those numbers are gone and will soon be forgotten. I am sure
they have many "good" reasons for the deletion of
past membership numbers. Now they are locked in the
vault along with salary numbers and Bob P.'s "in 1986"
warning from the Service Manual. It may not be evident
to non-alcoholics why this information is so important.
But sober members of A.A. need to wake up. We have
been sleeping much too long. ANONYMOUS

List of membership numbers

Please write to GSO. They will gladly provide that
complete list FOR you. It shows that AA membership
increased continuously for the first 57 years to almost
two and a half million members worldwide in 1992. I
tried to post it, but my computer skills are lacking.

anger and resentment

Your anger and resentment is dripping from your poison pen. How do these numbers effect the newcomer to the rooms of AA. The real reason for any stagnation in AA ( if there is stagnation) could be pointed to angry old men who refuse to grow and can't stand being supplanted within a group. Start your own association and lets see who follows

Reply to anger and resentment

How do these numbers effect the newcomer to the rooms of A.A.? They are driven away before they can be counted.
There are many associations started by alcoholics who
are turned off by today's AA. But Alcoholics Anonymous in
its origional true form was the best of the best. Two
words describe our blunders: Dogma and distortion ANONYMOUS


If one embarks on the outside sponsorhip institutionalized system around A.A. where a sponsor helps protect you from yourself – this sick SCENario is way beyond alcoholism and any God i could every even try to understand. I love the fellowship not someones followship, take a closer look at the wolfs dressed in sheep's cloth rounding up sheep.
Loneliness in a crowd can take you to some strange sponsored places and some can take it to insanity and death SOBER.
Sup prized myself AFTER going through HELL IN A.A. and came to believe in God.

I'm almost there

after many moments of clarity I have realized that it is becoming a lifelong adventure. I am much quicker to see, before I react to certain life's struggles, the higher power solution. I am able to refer back to many situations and reference that it really does work! JER UT. ID. CA. & back to UT.

Our Religious Nature

Bill W. wrote in an article for the 1963 April issue of the
AA Grapevine: Speaking for Dr. Bob and myself I would like
to say that there has never been the slightest intent on
his part or mine, of trying to found a new religious denomination. Dr. Bob held certain religious convictions, and so do I. This is of course, the personal priviledge of
every AA member.
Nothing however could be so unfortunate for AA's future
as an attempt to incorporate any of our personal theological views into AA teaching, practice or tradition. Were Dr. Bob still with us, I am positive he would agree that we could never be too emphatic about this matter. End
of quote.
Bill repeats a warning previously written in AACA
at the bottom of page 232. What does Bill mean by this?
I believe he means that we can share(and ought to
share) our own personal beliefs and how they aided in
our recovery (exactly what happened to me), without
implying that any other member ought to believe the
same. I understand today, why Bill W. and his friends
rejected the 24hr book in the early 1950's. To have
accepted it as AA approved literature, would have
brought Richmond Walker's personal views into AA
tradition. Let me here note that I love that little
black book and have carried it in my back bocket for decades. But I understand today, why it was
rejected. In the early 1970's it was rejected by
the General Service Conference. Thank God it
was rejected again, although for I personally would
have voted for accepting it. I simply did not understand
the technique which had been developed by Bill W. and
Dr. Silkworth for the wholesale recovery of alcoholics.
In theory, every alcoholic entering AA is allowed absolutely
to chose his/her own religious beliefs, or none at all.
Working the steps is a personal matter and a personal
choice. I share exactly how I recovered, without even
implying or suggesting that anyone else do it the same
way. Reading the 24 hour book from the podium at meetings,
as part of the meeting format to all and sundry,
indicates that it has been accepted as AA tradition.
Many will say "Each group can do as it pleases". Sure,
but look at where that has brought us. We have half a
million members LESS in AA today than we had in 1992.
Our membership increased less than 15,000 in 2010 in
the US and Canada. How shamefully dismal! WE have 30
million suffering alcoholics in the US today. They
are still approaching us by the hundreds of thousands
every year and we are failing them. We stand in our
cozy circle, holding hands and praying, doing the
chant: "Keep coming back, it works if you work it,
so work it you're worth it, I die if I don't work it"
Today I see why we are failing so many. Alcoholics
Anonymous has morphed into some kind of strange
religious cult. I first heard this discription of
AA while viewing an A&E Real Life Drama video which
was produced in 1999/2000 for public television.

Our religious Nature...

I like the "24 hr. Book" very much. I read it every day ..It helps me a lot..there is much truth in it...I still go the A.A. meetings and read the book.They read it in beginning of meeting that I go to..I am thankful to be sober 7 day at a time...

RE: Our religious nature

I also love the 24hr book. I read it often. My first copy was given to me by an AA member 41 years ago. The price
was $1.75. I often questioned why Bill W. and his friends
rejected this book when it was offerred to Alcoholics
Anonymous. I am quite sure it has always been a popular
book and very profitable. I always thought that it was
rejected because it wasn't Bill's work. It was only recently
that I fully understand why this book was rejected. It is
simply too religious. The 24hr book is for an AA member's
personal use, never intended to be read to all and sundry
from the podium. A true investigation of this opinion may
reveal the truth that AA has become too religious. This
reading at meetings and the reading of HIW aloud at meetings
have been two of our worst blunders. Add the chanting and
we become a strange religious cult. ANONYMOUS

RE:Our Religious Nature

A Religious Nature is about running to a sponsor (person) or a Meeting (place) or shopping (things) instead of God (what the hell is that?) lol

it will be ok god will take

it will be ok god will take care of it. keep comeing back like the old timeers told me or change it or go with the flow.god bless u and keep uu.

Joined: 2011-07-13
Chaos(Hay-wire thinking)

Although my thinking is not as bad as it use to be there is still a modicum of confusion and defocussing that I must cut through in order to function properly. Don't think, don't drink and go to meetings.

I defocus in order I believe not to sabotage but because of fear of the unknown and of avoiding the inevitable. I do not fear success, but abhor failure as the slow suicide of drink and I want to be well, but how well? Do I like some of my character defects? oh no!

I guess I will let go, let God and ask Him to remove some shortcomings! Ah-ha, thought I was perfect again!

Last to know

You know something could be wrong when you discover yourself and you are the last to know your an alcoholic - most think they are something else. The clarity was astonishing didn't even need an outside sponsor to tell me i was. cool or what

What should I do?

This is probably the wrong place to write but I am desperate. My daughter has been clean and sober for 18 years and has worked the NA program all of these years also. While she was visiting me (her mom) from out of town I found, after her visit she had been drinking and hid the bottles which I found just yesterday.
I am just sick about this and I want to know if I should confront her with this by phone or tell one of her friends and see if she could help her? Being a long distance from her does not permit me facing her face to face and telling her I know she has been drinking and if I don't say something to her then I feel like I am an enabler.
Please, can someone answer here as to what I should do?
Thank you,
Her Mom

Re: What should I do?

It's ok to stand still and hurt it's really human to do that.
Your daughter is an adult - let her be that!!!



Came to believe.....

I loved AA from the start. I was tired of drinking and ready to stop. I was a terrific person who just drank too much. I didn't mind hearing you tell everyone about your terrible life and how drinking made it unbearable etc. but me? I still had a job, a place to live and a relationship.
All I could really judge my life by was my externals. I was so cut off from any internal or spiritual self that I could not identify with anything anyone said about "feelings."
I was so completely detached from my emotions that I didn't even realize that all I ever felt was rage and fear.
I was from NY. NYer's don't whine. We get on with it.
Then, one day after about 6 months of not drinking and going to meetings I heard a speaker. I can't even remember what she said but I felt this burning heat on my face. I know now it was a feeling of embarassment and humiliation. Then it dawned on me - I was just like everyone else I had been listening to for 6 months. I was physically and mentally and spiritually sick and my life was indeed unmanageable. The second step was washing over me. My sponsor used to say some things will not be figured out they will only be revealed.

Joined: 2011-06-07
I too love AA

I too loved AA from the start. I wanted to stop drinking and I had tried every way described in the Big Book. Location, moderation, meditation, church, exercise, Doctors, and drugs. Will-power alone got me a week but no more. My drinking had cost me 2 marriages and was about to cost me a 3rd. My health was failing and my children were distant while being only 20 minutes away and my grandchildren hardly knew me at all. My retirement was destined to be a short one, most definitely not a relaxed or a happy one.

To the world I seemed like a terrific person. Thirty years as a Firefighter/Paramedic, seldom missed a day of work, no appearance that my drinking was effecting my work. I thought I was very clever in how I concealed it. I did volunteer work all over the country and the world as a disaster response team member. Haiti 2010 just after the earthquake was my last attempt to stop drinking on my own. Even in a disaster zone the ETOH flows.

Sixty years old, nice pension, savings, IRA's, big house, wife. From the outside everything looked hunky dory. Inside rage, anger and more frequently occurring blackouts were casting a insipid darkness on everything. My wife had taken two jobs out of state to escape the turmoil as I tried to get things under control. That of course only led to my drinking at home, drinking alone and drinking only to get drunk or until it was gone.

My wife was forced home by the economy only to find things worst then when she had left. My visits to her were a masquerade in sobriety and the rage and arguments resumed and now adding to it was physical damage of property that was only going to lead to physical violence. My life had become completely and totally unmanageable. Suicide seemed the only rational solution but that would mean she had won and she would be rich and happy and my resentments were to profound to let that happen.

I told my wife that I would go to AA twice a week if necessary and that I would leave the house and marriage if I were to start drinking again.
The closest meeting to me was a closed meeting, I didn't know what that meant so thankfully I chose an open meeting close to downtown. God must have been guiding me because the verity of people that were there made all the difference. (as an aside I have attended the closed meeting and they are a great bunch but not what I needed at the start)
I slinked in, avoiding as many as I could, sat in the back and didn't speak up when asked if anyone was there for the first time, I didn't speak up for a desire (24 hour) chip but when we went around the room and I said "my name is Dennis and I'm an Alcoholic" the flood gates opened and I asked if I could still take that desire chip. That was my first step on this long adventure.

My twice a week promise has become 5 noon meeting per week, two evening step studies, one weekend groups, and one evening topic group. If I make every one that's nine a week. Nobody explain 90 and 90 to me until I took a sponsor and by that time I was already locked in. I love each group and the friendships that have evolved. I'm guarding against burn out because as a alcoholic I know that excess is what got me here and as an introvert the camaraderie is intoxicating.

Joined: 2011-05-19

Several times during meetings in the last 514 days that I have been in this program, have been eye openers to say the least. I have examined things about myself and cried by myself. I have felt great sadness and been beset by moments of great happiness.
Coming to this program has been the best thing I have done for myself and my family. I look foward to the next meeting if I have felt down or depressed. Sometimes a meeting is the bright spot of my day and the messages of hope and recovery bring me closer to my higher power. I have dodged and procrastinated on my 4th step for weeks. I truly want to get it right and my sponser now sees why and what took me so long for me to do this. I did a lot of soul searching and have tried to be as thorough and as honest as possible.I never would be where I am at now if it weren't for this program, my group and my friend, my sponser. I look foward to many more days and hope to keep coming back so that I too, may someday pass along what was so freely given to me.

Step Four

When I came into AA there were very few meetings designated as step meetings. Many meetings had the steps shade on the
wall, but no one pointed to them and said, this is what you
must do. They were truly suggestions. Over the years I forgot that they were suggestions and became convinced that they were "musts", much like pulling the cord on a parachute. But today I understand that they are suggestions.
I don't like the words "only suggestions" or "but suggestions". The steps are suggestions for the individual
to decide all by himself whether she/he wants to use them or not. We are not to cram the steps down anyone's throat. Bill W explains this on page 8 in Language of the Heart.
The fourth and fifth steps were very important to me. I
often wondered how to do the fourth step. Then I found
that answer on page 50 of the 12&12, under just how do I
ake an inventory of myself? How do I go about this? Bill
explains exactly how to take the fourth step. And my advice
for anyone taking the fifth step, take it with someone
who is sworn to secrecy, a priest, doctor. Lose the "sponsor" who insists that he/she is qualified to hear and guard your deep dark secrets. The fourth step in 12&12
is lengthy but it is full of vital information from our co-
founder. Read it. Study it. Select the questions that pertain to you, beginning on page 50. Some did not apply
to me, but many I claimed as my own. Write out the
questions and answers. Keep your work under lock and key,
until the fifth step is completed and then burn it. I
have completed this process thoroughly, two times in my
more than three decades of sobriety. In AA we allow
every member to make the decision when and whether to
do these steps. They are truly suggestions. Anonymous

Joined: 2011-04-28
Moment of Clarity

My most important and life changing moment of clarity was the moment my HP allowed me to see and tell myself the truth that I had lied to myself about for 18 years: I was drinking because I HAD TO drink and not because I wanted to drink. I haven't had a drink since and that was September 22, 1983 - same year I became a GV fan!

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