Burning Desire to Share

2357 replies [Last post]
RE: RE: Think, Think Think

If Joe does not state his name, does the group yell
"WHO ARE YOU"? Keep in mind that membership doubled
in that decade. Think, Think, Think. I think the introduction of chanting into A.A. was a horrible
blunder. I makes us look ridiculous, IMO. ANONYMOUS


No comments on my typing blunder? I really need to pay
more attention to Preview. ANONYMOUS

Days of Wine and Roses

When Joe says "I am an alcoholic", does the crowd yell
Hi! Joe!? Something to THINK about. ANONYMOUS


Is it possible that the craving phenomenon that is spoken about in Chapter 2 of the big book also is happening when one drinks and then craves/reaches for other drugs? That describes me when I drink? Is that all part of the craving phenomenon that is alcoholic behavior?


There is a ton of current research on addiction to investigate. Behind addiction is not a lack of god but a brain disorder. It's in the bio-chemistry of the individual. Why do some people become addicts and others do not? Look at the research and it will answer your question. It’s all the same. I personally didn't do narcotics because alcohol did the trick. But it’s common in the rooms that members including me will switch addictions because after they sober up, the brain is still trying to light up the nerve pathways. Some do it with sugar, heavy caffeine drinking, nicotine, carbs, obsessive exercise, rage, sex, medications, diet colas, self-help books and so on. Chasing highs even though the alcohol has long been put to sleep is very common. In my experience, no matter how hard I worked the program I was miserable because in a way I was still blocking the recovery process with these other distractions. I needed to learn to have constant vigilance over these things. I have to make sure I am not numbing out my feelings and emotions in other ways. Recovery to me is allowing the feelings to surface. By facing and learning how to negotiate them the mind will heal. Taking healthy perspectives on these roots of pain totally turned my recovery around. If you are still lacking the joy of sobriety and have been in the rooms for a while perhaps my experience may appeal to you. Thanks

RE: Re: Craving

If we know what causes the craving, and how to prevent
it, does it really matter? Keep A.A. simple and out of
research. Leave that to the scientists. Rose

re Craving

Does it make a difference?

Another Plan

I do have a plan which will solve our money problem and will return our fellowship to an
acceptable public image. First, any paid employee who has been an AA trustee will be terminated,
with a three week severance pay. All current trustees and future candidates will be required to
sign a release stating that will never expect or accept a paying job with A.A.
Second, begin a five year plan to eliminate all non-alcoholic Trustees. The need for non-
alcoholic trustees has not existed for many years. We can take care of ourselves.
Third, use five million dollars of our Prudent Reserve Fund to "Buy Out" as many employees
as possible. Use the remaining four million to move out of New York City. Save a million in
the Prudent Reserve Fund. That will meet our revised minimum requirement.
Fourth, return our goal of self-support and move toward that goal. "Spend what we send! and
not a penny more. Do not provide services that we are not willing to pay for out of our own
pockets. Sell books and literature at the cost of printing.
There are many flaws in our A.A. structure from top to bottom. Many took decades to happen
and may take decades to correct. But if we do not start now we may never return A.A. to any
acceptable degree of effectiveness. It ought to be obvious why I sign my messages ANONYMOUS

re-another plan fool-proof

I have plan for you that is fool-proof. Put your hand out to a newcomer, make coffee, sweep floors and take the cotton out of your ears and place it in your mouth. Works every time. You'll wake up one day and be amazed before you are half-way through. Old School AA that works. By the way did I miss the meeting that appointed you the guardian of the kingdom? Love and Let Love

re Another

Don't expect much help here. Newcomers don't know or care what you are talking about and more experienced members understand that anyone harboring such a big resentment just doesn't get it.

The OK Go ahead was supposed to have a not really happy face after it. I guess it didn't come through.

RE: re Another

Oh, it came through. Most A.A. members, new or experienced,
have no idea what my concerns are. The more experienced
members who do understand remain silent for selfish reasons,
greed being the main reason. Most any person of average
intelligence could understand it, if they cared enough.
Investigate THE POWERFUL TRADITION Page S72 in the
Service Manual. Bill warns us about the danger of inviting
authoritarian and institutional operating styles which
would conflict with A.A. principles. I suppose the
principles Bill is referring to, no longer exist. This
is probably not easily understood by today's A.A.
member. I was 35 years sober before I even saw a Service
Manual. Shame on me. ANONYMOUS. Believe me I was much
happier with my head in the sand.


OK. Go ahead.

RE: plan

Only our General Service Board of Trustees (GSB) have
the power to "Go ahead". You may not know that, but it
is accurate. Our Board of Trustees have all legal power.
We could get their attention by refusing to send them
any more money. That is the "power of the purse". Bill
explains that in Concept Seven. Our Trustees can either
obey the wishes of the membership, or continue on
their own path. They have recently made profit from the
sale of books and literature acceptable as a second
source of income. They removed the "in 1986" paragraph
from Page S72 in the Service Manual. I assume that this
deletion was "conference approved". In the near future,
our Trustees will begin to accept money from other
sources, further violating Tradition Seven. They do not have
to change the tradition: They just ignore it.
I am deeply concerned about where our financial
support comes from. What concerns me even more is that
so many of our A.A. members do not know the value of
self support. They don't care where the money comes
from. "What difference does it make?". The difference
is whether Alcoholics Anonymous is going to survive or
not. It may never die. We could just remain an eight cylinder engine running on two cylinders, which could
continue for many more decades. Personally, there is
not much more I can do. I can't do it alone. If you
do not help, there is no way I can "Go ahead". If
you are concerned about A.A.'s future, contact your
delegate. Do your own investigation. Seek out others
who may understand.Ignorance is not bliss. It can be fatal. ANONYMOUS

Saving AA

What a great idea. It should be implemented as soon as possible.

either or

“some think it’s a rigorous practice of the 12 Steps, some think its sober alcoholics sharing their experience, strength and hope……”

I don’t see where anyone get the idea that it’s an either/or proposition.

I share my experience of what it was like, what happened and what it’s like now.

What it was like is simple enough. I drank too much. I throw in some details for the newcomer in case it might strike a chord that someone else’s story might not.

What happened was a spiritual awakening as a result of these steps. Most of my story is spent on the steps, how I did them. If someone brought a broken car to some kind of car repair group I believe he would need more information about how to fix one than how broken they can get or how good they are after being repaired.

My strength? It took some intestinal fortitude to give up the only way of life I knew, to trust an unknown Higher Power and face my shortcomings and their results. Sometimes it was hard, but I did it. I think if I did you can too.

And hope - What it’s like now?
I personalize how the promises have come true in my life.
Junk vehicles to nice ones.
Replacing what to do for money to what to do with money.
Run down house in a slum to watching the sun rise and set over our land.
One night stands to 12 wonderful years of marriage and growing.
Comfortable around strangers and everyone else.
Still having feelings that jump all over the Richter scale but no longer control my life.
Assertive when I need to be and accepting when I need to.
Happy to live and unafraid to die.
God doing for me what I could not do for myself.

Joined: 2011-08-11
so helpful my feelings too

so helpful my feelings too jump around but no longer control my inner life the way they used to--thanks for calling that to my attention

either-or both-or-neither

Sounds like your life a perfect life today. Congratulations! I didn't do any of those things you mentioned and I got the same results. Go figure. The program works even if you don't work it.
To me, as long as I don't pick up that first drink and seek goodness its a sober happy hour 24/7. Thanks

re either

Funny, I've never seen anyone hanging around cardiac rehab or a weight watcher's picnic saying "I don't do any of these things and get great results?

Why do we get them?

RE: either, or both

Thanks for a simple message. If we "don't drink" and
show up at meetings to try to share this precious gift
with others, how can we fail? I believe that "It Works"
no ifs, ands or butts. Seek and spread goodness. My
life is not perfect and I am not always happy, but your
message brought a smile. Rose

I'm an alcoholic I can't just

I'm an alcoholic I can't just NOT DRINK. I am sick mentally, physically, emotionally, and spiritually. The physical improves in the absence of alcohol. That's not enough for the other three. That's how we can fail.

RE either or

“some think it’s a rigorous practice of the 12 Steps, some think its sober alcoholics sharing their experience, strength and hope……”

I don’t see where anyone get the idea that it’s an either/or proposition.

Some think it's a followship some thinks it's a free gift from God the fellowship

Shhhhh Don't tell the outside sponsorship syetem practicing on people already here helping people out instead of in !


I am curious about THE PLAN which had gotten a lot of attention in the year 2012. My delegate
returned from the annual conference and gave the report at our Spring Assembly. I tried to pay attention and would have asked for details at the end, but I already had questions to ask. I had to ask if the commemorative first edition was accepted or rejected. I thought it was rejected (which
it was), but the minority voice turned the vote around. So it will be published against the
wishes of my area. But what happened to THE PLAN? Was the whole thing dropped, or was it placed
on the back burner. What happened to the Planner. Did he resign? Was his term completed? Or did
he drop out of sight for a while until a paid position in the structure can be found for him,
maybe as GSO manager? The last two GSO managers were trustees. I don't know how many trustees
have been given jobs in the past. It makes me extremely sad that most A.A. members today have
no idea what my concerns are about. ANONYMOUS

an individual experience?

I read this as part of a post here recently.

“To me, recovery is an individual experience. For example, if we pass a piece of paper and a number two pencil to a room full of people and ask them to draw a picture of what recovery looks like, I guarantee every piece of paper in that room will look completely different.”

This concept might apply if the room full of people were asked what this years parade float should look like but trying to apply it to recovery from alcoholism has been a death sentence for many.

In the Foreword to the First Addition (no you don’t need to buy a first addition, it is included in the fourth)

“We, of Alcoholics Anonymous, are more than one hundred men and women who have recovered from a seemingly hopeless state of mind and body. To show other alcoholics precisely how we recovered is the main purpose of this book.”

Looks to me like those hundred plus picked up their number two pencil and drew the same picture “precisely how we recovered”. Then you can add Joe H who pointed out that the Big Book’s message starts before page one and you can add me, and my sponsor, and members in by group, and members in other groups and on and on.

Am I saying that it’s my way or the highway? Surprisingly, no. I only recommend AA’s way (as spelled out in its instruction book), I never developed a solution, I use theirs. Are there other ways to recovery? Certainly. Many benefit from spontaneous remission. Many get what they need from their church. The medical community and drug industry are always coming up with new cures, maybe even one that will work someday. If suffering alcoholics reach out to any of them for help, more power to them. If they reach out to AA, it’s my responsibility to give them AA, not what I think they should hear or some committee’s consensus.

re-individual experience

You said, "If they reach out to AA, it’s my responsibility to give them AA" And what exactly is this AA you want to give them? Because AA is not the same for everyone. So we must be careful. As far as I know AA is a diverse Fellowship where members share their experience, strength and hope. There is a suggested pathway to the stars but, not all members find it helpful. Should we kick them out or beat them over the head; belittle their message; secretly hope they relapse to please our egos?
No, we welcome anyone with love and tolerance who has a desire to stop drinking. The wisdom and magic in the rooms is bigger than you or I. Anyone can find the necessary tools they need to stay sober for one day even if the tools they are using are different then mine. Embrace Diversity


The post says "as spelled out in its instruction book"

The Big Book's Purpose

The main purpose of the Big Book was to show and tell
other alcoholics how to recover, and to make lots of money
to support the treatment centers which the government and
insurance companies support today. This was all changed
just before the book went to print.
The Big Book is a story book. It has a simple purpose:
to explain how one hundred men had recovered from a fatal
disease. It explains in detail how that was done. It
worked for them and it might work for you if you care to
try it. We will help in any way we can. Helping others
seems to be the way we stay sober ourselves. We are not
advisors, teachers or preachers. Most of us have developed
enough humility to know that we are sober and alive only
by the grace of God. Pride has no place in our fellowship
of recovering/recovered alcoholics. ANONYMOUS

RE: The Big Book's Purpose

Thank you, now let your sponsor know !

RE: RE: The Big Book's Purpose

How could I do that? I do not have a sponsor. I have
never had a "sponsor". I have had several mentors over
the years, but they would never fit today's role of
sponsor. I believe we all come as equals to a place
where we can all recover together. No hierarchy or
patriarchy. That is the climate in which Alcoholics
Anonymous was born, two alcoholics needing each other.
Bill was well aware that he needed another alcoholic
to talk to. He was afraid of going "down the drain". Dr.
Bob needed what Bill had to offer, although he may not have
known what it was, or that he needed it. This ingredient
of humility is what is missing in today's A.A. ANONYMOUS

re purpose

You said, "The Big Book is a story book. It has a simple purpose:to explain how one hundred men had recovered from a fatal disease." In a way this is true, however it leaves out so many important stories such as those of agnostics and atheists that found it not necessary to believe in god to live a sober life. There is a whole history in AA not being represented and their stories are not being told by the big book. The "We Agnostics" chapter means well but it only describes those who found god in the end. To me, this is an unfair and it truly discredits and insults the valuable work done by so many agnostics and atheists who throughout the years helped opened up the rooms and kept it from becoming like the Oxford Group. Are agnostics and atheists 2nd class members?

re purpose

No that is not what I said. Read my post again or read it from your Big Book to be sure I got it right.

You must have come across some real losers to categorize anybody who has taken step two as someone blocking the entry to anyone who hasn't yet. A lot of us don't fit that mold.

"Are agnostics and atheists 2nd class members?"
Absolutely not. Newcomers are the lifeblood of AA.


You said, "Absolutely not. Newcomers are the lifeblood of AA." Thanks for your honestly, it gets better one day at a time. Keep coming back and your life will change as well as your attitude. We all have one in our early days. Even though you are new, your message can save the person who just walked through the door. Don't worry about being in early recovery. Most of us come to AA to learn how to not pick up the first drink. The strange and joyful journey in recovery is once you reach the top your realize someone else has been there and you are actually on the bottom and you have to keep striving for the top again. Thanks for you message of hope. Johnnie T.

Johnnie, You might try some

You might try some Windex on your crystal ball.

DOS 11/79

RE-Johnnie DOS 11/79

You answered my question. 11/79 represents quantity not quality. Thank you. Keep Coming Back.

2nd class

The Big Book is just an honest story of how the first
members recovered. There were at least two of the
early members who were agnostic or atheistic. Hank P
and Jimmy B. Bill wrote on page 164 that our book would
be suggestive only. The steps themselves are but suggestions. What most A.A. members lack is a proper
understanding of "suggestion". A suggestion is not telling
someone what they must do. I share what I did, what I
do and what happened to me. Sounds a bit self-centered,
but that is the IDEA offered to Bill W. by Dr. Silkworth
in the spring of 1935. A suggestion is just to share
an idea with someone for their consideration.
By making the BB suggestive, and the steps suggestions,
sobriety and recovery is offered to everyone.
There is a problem and it is a severe one. Agnostics
and atheistic alcoholics are pushed away, before they
get a chance at salvation. I believe that we can hold
on to almost all of them, if we stop pushing God and
the steps down their throats. Stop reading "How It Works".
That was our worst blunder ever. It led us down the
path to becoming a religion. I know A.A. is not a named
religion, but it has become a religion for many of us.
Too many! Please find and read the Grapevine article
"Without a Higher Power" from about three years ago.
Another article asked if we need an overhaul of our
fellowship. A loud YES. My past delegate told me to
"Keep sounding the alarm, maybe we can turn this ship
around." The members who are left in A.A. today are
the ones who steered us down the wrong path. I know,
because I was one of them. I regret that I was so
ignorant, misinformed, and uninformed. ANONYMOUS

re big book's purpose

How can you say "We are not advisors, teachers or preachers." then teach, preach, and advise about pride and humility? sounds like the pot calling the kettle black only the pot is still potted!

re-individual experience

If there was only one way of getting sober than there would only be one person sober in AA. I don't know of anyone in my home group and in all the groups in the area that are clones of each other. Not everyone in AA works the steps; not everyone in AA reads the Big Book; not everyone in AA believes in God. Recovery and sobriety are not cookie cutter experiences. Even if you gave a paint-by numbers painting to everyone, the result would still be different. My recovery is very different than yours apparently. Does this mean you are more sober than me, better than me? I've been doing quite well since 1983, how about you? Never said one prayer to boot! Everyone I sponsor has a different style of recovery. Some like step-meetings, agnostics meetings, speaker meetings, Big book Meetings, LGBT meetings etc. I share my experience strength and hope, not my sponsors, not Bill W's and not yours.

Joined: 2013-03-13
I need a sponsor

I have almost 9 months sober now and haven't even made it past step 3, not because I am not willing and open and ready but because I am having an issue selecting the right sponsor. I had a temporary sponsor who completely lost her mind after 3 years of sobriety and believe she is using other substances and haven't seen her in 6 months so I selected a new sponsor who has just celebrated 2 years fresh out of finishing her 12 steps for the first time, keeps cancelling on our meetings to work on my steps, also when we did have a concrete date and time, planned a lunch together to do this, she had invited others along and was discussing her issues going on with her (boys and work) and completely disregarding what our plans were. also she doesn't go to meetings regularly and I don't even think she is doing any service work at this time. I do have to say that I don't call her as much as I should and when I do it is about 50/50 chance we get in touch. I have had to contact other women in the program to reach out for help more than I have from her to this point. I did go to a meeting last night and go figure...the topic was sponsorship (just what I was struggling with) and I have came to the decision that I need to ask someone else with more time and dedication for me. what do you think, am I wrong? I keep going back and forth on this because she has never sponsored anyone before and her relationship with her sponsor is not something I desire but I love her to death, she is a wonderful person, just not something I need for my sobriety or am I just trying to find the differences and excuses to jump to another sponsor? please help


You need to keep it simple. Just pick someone. Say it's temporary, and if it doesn't work out, get somebody else. It's dangerous to not have a sponsor. You are over-thinking it.

Joined: 2013-03-13

your totally right, I am over-thinking it. :)


I have had quite a few sponsors because I was dealing with other post-stress issues at the time. It taught me a good lesson that I feel guilty about now.AA is about getting over alcohol.Right now I have 9 years and my HP had been a pretty concrete Group of Drunks,Good Orderly Direction etc.I was so scared of my higher power being my former religion until I asked and was answered that it could be anything.I switched it and told my home group and they said fine.This switching it became a week or a month long and it finally hit me that what I was looking for was not a superhuman strength religion,per say,but,as I see it now,I pray to "spirit",as in "spiritual" and Mobius Strip as my Center that tells me that I can never graduate.That is one of "my clarity of thought"
ideations.I just breath a sigh of relief and gratitude that the drunks(BB) and the 12x12 was so extraordinarily powerful in itself.AE

re: finding a sponsor

It was suggested that I find someone with whom I felt I could be totally honest, which for me translated to someone who worked the AA principles outside in the real world, who was as mindful of the traditions as of the steps. I was not looking for someone who expected me to call every day, or who would call me, but someone who would be there when I needed them. If the person you selected is not responsive, it might benefit you to discuss your thoughts on sponsorship with her, what it means for both of you, and determine whether you are compatible. I would definitely read the AA pamphlet on sponsorship, and perhaps suggest that your sponsor do likewise, before you discuss. If you are on different pages, you will likely agree you need to find a new sponsor.

Joined: 2013-03-13
Re: finding a sponsor

Thank you this helps alot

re sponsor

Perhaps making yourself noticed as someone in need of a sponsor would be helpful. Appearing as someone who deserves a good sponsor would be infinitely helpful. Everybody who walks in the door has a boatload of problems. A few have a boatload of problems and are willing to take some action to get rid of them. Potential sponsors notice them because they ask good questions; they have a 12 X 12 and a Big
Book and are reading them and asking questions about them in the meeting, in the “meeting before the meeting” and the “meeting after the meeting”. Throw in asking about the pamphlet “Q and A about Sponsorship” and you’ve painted a picture of yourself as someone who may be sponsor-able.

Joined: 2013-03-13
re sponsor

I have been only focusing on one meeting so I will branch out and go to other meetings and meet more people and just put it out there. thank you

re I need

“I have almost 9 months sober now and haven't even made it past step 3, not because I am not willing and open and ready but because I am having an issue selecting the right sponsor”

On my fourth step I was led to categorize my behavior into various character defects. Such as:

I claimed to have made a decision (step 3) do something and haven’t. Why? Afraid to look at myself – Fear, Irrational fear.

I saw others get on with steps four and five but not me. I’m a special case; I don’t need it –false pride.

Have I gotten a notebook and a box of pencils and wrote Step 4 at the top of page one? No, I’m not willing; I’m lying even saying I am. -dishonesty

I can’t do anything (like read the instructions in the Big Book and 12 & 12) because of other people won’t behave correctly (the way I say they should). – Blaming, superior, rationalizing.

One innocent sentence, 5 traits keeping me from “a new freedom and a new happiness…serenity…peace…”

Perhaps I need to look further into this me that I thought I knew so well. You think?

Joined: 2013-03-13
re i need

do you know me? :) I have went through this same thing and wrote everything out just like this now I just have to share it with someone. (step 5)

in to action with step 4

You forgot procrastination or as Bill called it sloth in five syllables.

If I were the original poster I think I would be working on a big case of self righteous anger right now if they were troubled with being oversensitive like me. They probably aren't though and will quickly thank us taking the time to help. That is unless they are ungrateful. Hope not or that could raise the count to eight. Possibly a new world record.

To re I Need:
Welcome to AA, you sound like one of us.

Re: I need a sponsor

Okay, I am going to go out on a limb here and reply. Please understand that I am speaking completely from my experience and, also, that I am part of a sponsorship family that hears this a lot. The experience you described is why we have gone out of our way to be sure people we sponsor are prepared for doing the same some day. Anyway....

I am one of those self-proclaimed former agnostics/athiests who found the god of my understanding in this program. I apologize if what I am going to write here sounds like god-thumping. But I guess it is! The first time I experienced god was when I first heard the voice of the man who would eventually become my sponsor. Something deep inside me, which I soon learned to trust as the voice of my higher power, told me I needed to get to know this person because he would change my life. That turned out to be an understatement.

The reason I relate this is that, like most things in AA and our individual programs, I have found I need to practice turning my will and my life over to the CARE of god on a continual basis. In choosing a sponsor, I believe this to be imperative. I don't know you, other than what I read of what you wrote, but I would suggest that we, as alcoholics, do not CHOOSE a sponsor. We pray, listen and keep our eyes and ears open until the god of our understanding puts that person squarely in our path., the person s/he has chosen FOR us.

Again, in my experience, the man who is now my sponsor turned out to be the one person who could help me with the "impossible" tasks we call the second and third steps. His understanding of god and of turning it over were exactly what I needed to keep from repeating my previous 2-3 years of failed attempts at a program of recovery. My sponsor does not have years of sobriety. To the contrary he is just coming up on six months. But he has a sponsor who is one of those seasoned veterans who takes a no-nonsense approach to the steps and never apologizes for that. My sponsor has experienced the miracles and promises of recovery in a very real and personal way, and is constantly telling me and showing me just how real they are.

I am coming up on 60 days of sobriety. Because of my sponsor, my home group and most of all because of the absolute grace of the god of my understanding, I am not only not drinking, but I have found that I am completely relieved of the desire to drink. For some reason, my higher power felt that I needed that miracle. But it all started with being led to my sponsor. Without him and his ability to be led by inspiration I truly believe I would still be out there drinking and hating my life.

One other thing you said that I zeroed in upon. You said you don't call your current sponsor as often as you should. Even though I am short of 60 days in sobriety and sanity, I was recently asked to be a sponsor. Again, before he asked, I knew he was going to ask, because that now familiar voice inside my head prepared me. So when he did there was only one answer I could give.

As my sponsor did with me, I asked my sponsee to do a few things every day. One of those things is to call me, or text me, every day. I also passed on to him that this relationship he asked us to enter into requires absolute commitment not only from me to him, but from him to me. I can do this with my sponsor because I trust him absolutely and because my love for him is just as strong as his for me. I'm not sure how the relationship would work, otherwise.

So, that is my long, windy way of saying.... trust the god of your understanding. S/he has someone already prepared to help us in our journey. Our task is not to choose that person, or to seek out the longest sober or most intelligent sounding or most comfortable person, but rather to open our hearts and minds to the promptings that will lead us to them.

Sorry if I am preaching....... I wish you the best, in your search and your sobriety. Yes, there are lots of people in AA who are just talking the talk and it sounds like you have met a few of those. But, I promise you that there is someone out there for you who can teach you how to walk the walk just as they do. May you find her soon.

Joined: 2013-03-13
Letting Go and Letting God

like I posted above, I will start going to more meetings and not worry so much about having a home group or a sponsor and just let my HP my God do his work.

The whole problem is that everyone is always talking about "get a sponsor" so I became more focused on that rather than just working the steps and talking to someone I trust (which is hard for me because I am a women and don't trust other women) but I am working on it and praying about it.

thank you

Letting Go

Great. Successful people of all kinds have used a multifaceted attack on problems. Different meetings, different people (have you read the women's stories in the Big Book).

Hard to trust other women? We used to trust alcohol. How much worse can we do than that?

Post new comment