Burning Desire to Share
I really took heart when I read your comments. When you wrote, "I feel like drinking is the only thing to do," I thought, that's the best definition of alcoholism that I have ever heard. Alcoholism tells you that it's a good idea to drink, even when you know in your heart that it isn't. And when you wrote, "I feel like I will never have fun again and never enjoy life" without alcohol, I remember that feeling well. But here's the good news. You can leave the hell of your situation and turn it around quite quickly. I say that because of my own situation. One day I was a woman, drunk in my house, on the road to dying of alcoholism, and the next day I was in a meeting where people told me, Patty, you never have to drink again, one day at a time." And in that moment I was on the road to a life that has given me a lot of joy, and a lot of learning, a life I never dreamed of, one day at a time. I encourage you to look up the meeting schedule online for your area, and go to some meetings. Listen to what the people have to say, and talk if you want to. A women's meeting is always a nice meeting to attend too. See if you relate to anything that you hear. I tell you, when I compare my life before and what it is now, I don't even think about drinking. It's a great freedom. I was so relieved when they told me, You never have to take another drink, one day at a time. Good luck to you.
If you found this site you can easily find, online, a meeting contact near you.
Please look up AA in your local phone directory or search your city with AA using the seach enging of your choice. If none are available, go to your local library and check out the book "alcoholics Anonymous" there are directions in the appedicies to get in touch with AA. If no AA members are available, an aa member from our general service office will begin a correspondence with you.
Good luck to you and your sobriety!
My first sponsor, acting according to the principles of our group, believed that part of his job was to help keep my ego in check. He and the other members of our men's step meeting were not shy about telling me if they thought I was off the beam a bit. We affectionately called this "getting nailed". It required humility and open mindedness to listen to the feedback and decide to make changes.
One risk in this style of AA is that it can lead to ego problems of another sort;in those who are delivering the message. That is way it was always done with love. I heard my sponsor's sponsor say on many occasions, "deliver your message with love".
This type of AA is not for everyone. My sponsor and I also attended a kinder/gentler AA meeting and would invite guys to the men's group. Not too many stuck around. The success rate of the men's group was very high. I wondered for years if it was because of their tough love methods or because the membership was composed of those who had a high degree of willingness. For the past 15 years I've been a member of a more easy going but loving group. We too have a lot of long term sobriety and help many newcomers make it. Maybe the common ingredient is love.
"They piled on me heaps of evidence to the effect an alcoholic mentality..." Alcoholics Anonymous p42. Doesn't sound like they used kid gloves does it? Worked for me too. Thanks for sharing.
Our group recently moved ...to a nicer space. Our old space was on the 3rd floor of a flat roofed church and the heat in the summer was near unbearable...to the point where our membership dropped off significantly during these months.
Amazingly, the complaints over the move were fast and furious!..which only goes to lend credence to the observation that "alcoholics only hate two things....everything different....and everything the same". Lol
Now to the problem....one of our members (30yrs sober) is so upset over the move that he has taken to peeing on the bathroom floor....missing the urinal on purpose, plugging up the head with whatever he can find and flushing the lever until there is flooding. Needless to say, this activity is not making our group popular with the church elders since we share this space with numerous other church group activities. He has also been using the fire door which is clearly marked "to be used only in emergencies" and sets off an alarm causing the fire department to be called. (Sigh)
Has anyone ever had a member of their group act like this..?.and what did you do to resolve it? We have tried talking to the gentleman to no avail...and so has the pastor of the church. It has gotten to the point where we may be getting the boot and our frustration is overflowing. No one wants to act like the so called "AA police" and bar someone from what may be lifesaving meetings...so what else is there?
Laurie (frustrated in Indiana)
Dementia in older members happens. Whatever level of of control that is necessary to stop vandalism (which is what you just described) is in order. I have been in more than one group conscience meeting where the decision was to use the police if needed. Haven't seen it come to following through with that but it needs to be ironed out ahead of time.
It's tough. Good luck.
If the group has already confronted him and informed him of tradition 1 that the group comes first, next time this happens, call the police so he can get the mental help he deserves. If your group doesn't want to go that far, simply have a male menber use the facilities whenever this person is. It is possible that someone else is commiting these offenses.
Remember that the group comes first, the individual members second.
On at least two occasions the group had the church legally prohibit the offenders from being on church property.
The matter of the offender's anonymity since his behavior was definitely not that expected of an AA member, in fact is a demonstration of his contempt for both the host church, the group and AA in general.
For years it has been said 'you dont have to hit rock bottom' to come in these rooms. Thats true, but the longest lasting decent sobriety has been from those who DID hit such a bottom. I watched another member die last week because he was arrogant and self important. Another big shot who was unteachable due to a super ego. In/out for years -then dead. There is altogether too much treatment center and not enough AA in the rooms today- but dont say anything or your jumped on
I'm Mike, alcoholic.
I don't like applying the term low or high bottom to others as it is very judgemental, IMO. It took what it took for me to get here and to stay here. If I go back out and drink again I am sure I will hit a lower bottom than the last one... sooner or later!
I have heard many times we don't have to ride the garbage truck all the way to the dump. I can get off any time. The person living in a mansion with an unlimited bank account can be just as sick as the one on skid row. I always believed I couldn't be an alki because I wasn't living on skid row. The idea kept me in denial for 32 years. I truly believe skid row is more a state of mind (bankrupt mentally, spiritually and emotionally).The only thing missing for me was sleeping in back alleys,eating out of garbage cans, etc. I would have surely ended up there with a little more drinking, If I was unlucky to live so long.
I try to meditate on step 1 every day so I never forget my last drunk. When and if the obsession to dring returns I play the tape through to the end to remember what I will surely lose if I pick up again.
Thanks for my sobriety.
Not in Houston TX we tell the gult level truth work the steps on die. Or live the rest o
f your life like a rouche.
I had had the wrecks, tickets, thousands of hangovers, work problems bombed relationships like everyone else from the beginning. I walked into Alcoholics Anonymous when I was thirty years old and couldn’t break the habit of going home from work thinking I could drink a beer, turning it into at least six or eight and falling asleep in front of the TV. No family pressure, no crisis. A good inventory using the steps showed me I was as sick as anybody on skid row. The drinking is only a symptom it says somewhere. I had plenty of others.
Trying to predict a member’s success or failure based on his or her bottom (or anything else for that matter) has been a fool’s errand for me any time I tried. Alcoholics Anonymous offers a solution for anyone who wants it any time they want to stop. That’s all that’s important.
I have found quite the opposite, that many who long-term quality sobriety did not hit "rock bottom" as you suggest. On that point, I heartily agree with Dr. Jung, that some kind of "emotional rearrangement" is necessary, which for some does not require skid-row membership before being possible. If my bottom allows me to recognize that I cannot and did not get sober by myself and need help to stay sober, and I have a little bit of gratitude for my sobriety and the help I have gotten in achieving it, I think I have a pretty good chance of staying sober today, whether my bottom was low or high.
SHERRIE, ALCOHOLIC ADDICT I'LL HAVE 24 hours in 2 hours. Can't sleep. I've been in the program since 1997. Best time of my life. SO HAPPY TO BE BACK. LOST MY READING GLASSES OUT THERE DRINKING, CAN't wait untill tomorrow to go to another meeting. See you at St. Joe's It's nice to be back with my real family. Love ya, Sherrie
24 Hours is FANTASTIC. That's all we have to do. Keep lining up those 24 hours at a time. Sometimes it one moment to the next, one minute at a time. Surround yourself with AA Materials, it helped me.
Dave B. Sober Day: 8/23/12
Life as I know it is an extremely comlex work of art. Far frail from those who simply adapt and fit in there are those who ponder and question. I have been an alcoholic all my life....how I made it this far is a mystery to me. In a "perfect" world one may shed light on the "brighter" things... I however swim deeper. In "my" mind there is a far greater presence at work orchastrating. And at the end of the day all I surmise is a wanting to simply commune with like minded individuals. I have so many stories and experienes to share in due time.
I'll do my best to resist dying from alcoholism until due time arrives.
I once had a cake in an Italian restaurant and felt a bit odd. Then the people I was with told me that they add a little bit of alcohol to the cake. I got scared - esp since I had just come back from a relapse and was only 4 months into recovery. I checked with my sponsor and he said it was perfectly alright, I hadn't relapsed and I don't need to change my date of sobriety and then he also said that all that don't mean I can drink alcohol in small quantities.
You didn't willingly and knowingly take a drink. You also didn't ingest an alcoholic beverage. You're fine. Word of caution, however: check aftershave lotions, cough & cold meds, deserts, etc., as a continual diet of any of these will definately change your body chemistry, mental well-being, and increase your vulnerabiluty to relapse. If any member other than your sponsor tries to instill guilt into your psyche, tell him to 'live and let live', call his own sponsor, say the serenity prayer, work the third step, or better yet, read page 449. It's ok today, you're ok today, and you're exactly where you are supposed to be, in this moment in time, doing exactly what you're supposed to be doing...now go help someone else! http://www.aagrapevine.org/
Thanks for the comments about aftershaves. I no longer
use them, or any hand sanitizer containing alcohol. I do
not want that poison absorbed in through my skin.
But I do question the power and authority you place
in the hands of a "sponsor". His or her "best thinking
got him/her here". I question the reliability of advice
coming from any ONE A.A. member. We all have "clay feet".
God gave us a brain. I believe He expects us to use it.
"Now, go help someone else! Yes Sir!! Manny Q.
I believe the tragedy in our rooms is many members think recovery is a "One Size Fits All" experience. Just do what we say, "Read this, work that." Recovery needs to be individualized. From my experience, throughout the years, the groups that have the highest success our groups that promote diversity and open-mindedness when it comes to members discovering strategies that work for them in their recovery. Militant 12-steps groups tend to scare people away and rush others to relapse. Sobriety out of fear from group pressure is not a good strategy. The medical community has made terrific advances and have more of a compassion for the addict than many AA groups which are stuck in the last century. Are we not the experts anymore? I always remember when approaching a new person that they have an illness or brain disorder and not someone whose sins or weak morals caused their alcoholism. Their recovery needs might not be the same as Bill or Bobs. But does this mean we kick them out or mistreat them into submission until they surrender to the Big Book or 12-Steps. The hoop that Bill talked about as being big enough for everyone is shrinking to the eye of a needle. I try and remember the beauty of AA is it is a diverse fellowship of its members and not a "One Size Fits All" program of fundamentalist clones.
I don't know where you guys all live but here in the Midwest we read "How it Works" in its entirety before every meeting. You know the one that has phrases like "thoroughly followed our path" and "People who cannot or will not completely give themselves to this simple program" "if you have decided that you want what we have and are willing to go to any lengths" "Half measures availed us nothing" Then it goes on to say here are the steps we took and lists all 12 steps. I will grant that Bill did speak of some latitude but the phrase you allude to is in regard to the choice of a God. I also remember a section of literature that says nothing but rigorous action will bring about the much desired results. What I will grant you is that we all need to be diplomatic about how we encourage members to continue on this path that will bring about not only the much desired result but all 12 Promises which come after the 9th step. For Bill advised us that no one likes to be lectured to nor is there any room for shaming in our meetings or fellowship. The traditions more than adequately cover whether or not we should be kicking anyone out and sincerely hope that your groups are following those traditions to the fullest.
Well said and I couldn't agree more.
Well said, but I couldn't disagree more. Reading "How it
Works" aloud at A.A. meetings is the most tragic blunder
we of Alcoholics Anonymous have ever made. You may say,
"that is just your opinion", but an opinion is based on
feelings. Bill W. tried using the "How it Works" approach
in his first six monthe of what he called "violent exertion". That approach did not work for Bill W. and
seldom works for us today. Sure, some alcoholics do get
sober and stay sober using this religious method. They
did that before A.A. was born.
But for the multitudes of suffering alcoholics in
our world today we have at our fingertips a method much
more effective. Dr. Silkworth's "cart before the horse" IDEA
explains this method. It is further explained by Bill W.
when he wrote AACA Page 70.
Bill was the designer of the Big Book. He placed HIW
in chapter five for a specific timed effect. If HIW were
to be the first thing meant for the new prospect to hear,
see or read, Bill would have presented HIW as chapter one.
I guess that is an opinion. That reading has to be returned
to chapter where Bill placed it. ANONYMOUS
I guess I'm not seeing the "One Size Fits All" approach in my AA community. There are meetings of all kinds and many different approaches to recovery. I'd say that MOST meetings in my area and approaches to recovery are very easy going. There's no cross talk or confrontation but lots of hands out ready to help.
I sobered up in a VERY strict men's step meeting in the Midwest that gave me a solid foundation in the steps.I needed that. But, of every 10 men introduced to that group maybe 1 or 2 would stick around. And that was fine. Others would go back to groups where they felt more comfortable.
When I moved to the Western US, my old hard core sponsor was wise enough to caution me to go easy in my new groups and not try to push the hard core way of doing things. He was so right. Members of my new group were very easy going and it took me a while to learn how they were doing things.
Today, I'm a member of an easy going lunch group that is full of professionals with lots of sobriety. My old hard core buddies might think this group is too wimpy and that's ok. If I want to belong to a rigid group, I know where to go.
I guess I still don't see any method of "treatment" that works as well as AA. In my experience treatment was a great place to learn about the disease and recovery but it was not recovery itself. AA gave me actual steps I could take that give me a way to live without needing or even wanting alcohol or other mind altering chemicals. I always have to remember that AA is not for those who need it but for those who want it.
If the proven program of recovery developed by Alcoholics Anonymous doesn’t appeal to newcomers and they prefer to try Hatha yoga, health food and vitamin therapy, Alcoholics Victorious, or Pilates, more power to them. I’ll be more than happy to look up their address in the phone book for them. As far as working with others in AA the instructions are contained in (of all places) the chapter “Working With Others” in the Big Book.
If you do not have anything to contribute, why take up
the space? Really, we are not in church. Rose
Sometimes I'm discouraged by the rude comments and argumentative nature of these posts. If I were a newcomer looking to AA for guidance, I'd certainly have by doubts about AA unity if these posts were any example.
Proven? Not for everyone. To me, recovery is a bit more complicated then say, the cookie-cutter approach you claim is proven. Our recovery rates are 7-10%. If I was a doctor and developed a medicine that only helped 7-10% than I would look at it as a failure. We know there are so many factors involved in addiction today. Alcoholism is a complicated illness and the majority of alcoholics have other mental challenges as well. The moralistic approach that we have today was our father's recovery plan that bullied its way into the 21st century and does not work for everyone. I personally believe AA should adapt and rethink its recovery philosophy to embrace and reflect all its members. Today, its barbaric to say, "Our way or the highway!" You mentioned, "Hatha yoga, health food and vitamin therapy, Alcoholics Victorious, or Pilates, more power to them." The happiest members of my group couple their recovery with these alternatives. I personally rock climb and became a vegan. Why are you against someone exercising or eating healthy. I'd rather sit next to a person talking about the joys of sobriety like hiking than sitting next to someone complaining about the price of cigarettes or obsessing why the donuts are stale at a meeting.
I don’t see how anyone could get the idea that healthy living and using the AA program are mutually exclusive. Quite the opposite is detailed in the 12 X 12 as I recall, “…who wants to be gluttonous to ruin their health? I'm sure complaining is also covered in the house cleaning steps. One of many reasons that I go to the literature instead of listening to a guy that thought he heard a guy say….
I have personally seen the high recovery rate for people who use the AA program. Just like in the 1930’s when Bill wrote “Rarely have we seen a person fail who has thoroughly followed our path….” Perhaps you are confusing people who attend meetings with those who use the AA program. If only 7-10 percent of the doctors patients took the medicine he developed, I wouldn't expect his results to be high either.
Insights from the Big Book and 27 years of meetings:
Alcoholics don't deal well with frustration!
The Serenity Prayer works for most situations if I really mean it!
Don't react in anger until I've taken my own inventory.
Perfection is over-rated (from Alanon)
Anyone else care to weigh-in on this?
"In my opinion anyone who doesn't work the steps, pray to god and read the big book don't belong in AA.
I was taught not to tolerate all the rebels and liberals in AA.
We have to keep AA pure and free from the infidels, Don't we?"
WOOF!-yes that was an actual guy who spoke at our meeting last night. The very sad thing was many people were nodding their heads. If that guys message doesn't scare the newcomer away, I don't know what will.
I went up to tell the him to lighten up but my words just slipped off his ears. He looked right through me. Then I went over and greeted the newcomers and offered my number.
I'm really glad this site is open-minded and people share all kinds of ideas. People with time understand that lead was against everything we encourage but, the newcomers who heard it, I pray they return.
Occasionally, a crackpot will speak in our group. Natural born entertainers who place themselves and their Big Book on steroid flavored AA above the principals and traditions. A few weeks ago, a woman who purposely sat way in the back was called up to the podium. She screamed "Hallelujah! And ran down the aisle waving the big book high in the air screaming 'everything you need to know is in this book if it ain't in here it ain't AA!'" As she continued talking little did she know half the room left. Most of the people remaining where her followers and groupies. After the meeting ended, I felt sick and ran up to the podium and grabbed the old mic and calmly announced, "The opinions of this person does not reflect AA as a whole or the average member" A few of the group members told me to stop it and at the following group meeting I was put on probation. I left the group permanently and joined a mens group crosstown. When I shared it at the meeting the men gave me an applause followed by guffaws.
Thank goodness the majority of people aren't crackpots in AA.
I'm glad you found a group that follows the 12 traditions instead of one in which a member runs down the aisle with a big book or you can be put "on probation." That's definitely not from our traditions!
I've been in recovery since 2005. Four years ago I returned to the Catholic Church after being away since college. I adhere to the doctrine of transubstantiation. Which is in the Eucharist, the substance of the bread and the wine used in the sacrament is changed into the substance of the Body and the Blood of Jesus. So after I receive the host I sip the wine. I hadn't mentioned this to my sponsor until recently. He said I was in relapse. I totally disagree. My faith in God is to strong to allow me to live in relapse. The amount that touches my lips is not enough to start the cravings. Anyway, said he couldn't sponsor me anymore. He's been hostile toward my return to the Catholic Church from the start. AA helps me with alcholism but church helps me with my faith and through this faith I have become a respectable person again. I have a goal of becoming a deacon. When I shared this with him he went ballistic. Sometimes, we must follow our true paths even if the ones closest to us disagree. Are there any other people in recovery that have returned to faith and felt hostility? I'd like to know. Thanks Vincent
You don't have to take the wine at Communion. For many years, wine was not even offered. Since the host itself becomes the body of Christ, the blood of Christ is included in the body. Thus, you receive both the body and blood of Christ in the host and do not have to include the wine separately. I stopped taking the wine even before my recovery after noticing the strong smell of saliva in the cup one Sunday...
Many years ago at the beginning of an AA meeting that I attended the chairperson asked the participants for a topic. One of the new guys said he had a problem with extreme cravings for wanting to drink again and didn't know what to do about it. We encouraged him to talk openly and honestly about what he was doing in his day to day life that might be triggering him. And he was very honest and forthcoming about everything he was doing to work his program. The other members when they took their turns at speaking thanked him for his honesty and offered him words of encouragement.
About 10 minutes before the meeting ended the newcomer suddenly blurted out: " I have just started going back to church and I have been sipping the wine when we have communion but our priest has assured me that it is alright and will not harm me in any way, because it's part of the service"
We all sat there in stunned silence. I'm not sure what was said after that....
I asked an Old Timer once what the term: "To thine own self be true" meant that was on the back of my medallion. He looked at me, smiled and said: It means don't Bulls#&t yourself! "Alcoholics are experts not only at Bulls#&ting
others, but themselves as well" I smiled too!
I have a friend who is an alcoholic in recovery, who is a priest. He uses non alcoholic wine at mass, with the full support of his Bishop.
If you make your condition known, the church can provide a non alcoholic alternative consecrated alongside the alcoholic wine, if you so choose. We also provide gluten free hosts these days too! We are allergy inclusive:-)
That said your ex sponsor's apparent underlying hostility to the Catholic faith is not healthy. My own sponsor is not Catholic though he respects the God of my understanding, find yourself someone who does from the outset.
Breaking up with a sponsor is similar to divorce--there are 3 sides; his side, her side and the truth. Is your sponsor
really upset because you are Catholic or because you drink the wine. I can only speak for me but alcoholics of my type
shouldn't drink the wine. I do not knowingly ingest alcohol in any form. That includes: extract, cooking, near bear, medicines, on and on and on. ANYTHING containing alcohol is dangerous to me. For me things that taste like alcohol are
dangerous to me because of the association. Some churches offer grape juice. If your God is all powerful, loving and forgiving He will understand if you don't drink the wine.
All my best, Me and sober.
It sounds a bit counter productive that your sponsor be against that being it's part of your faith, your higher power. It almost seems that this sponsor has no faith in your recovery.... to be in AA or participate in AA, in my belief and understanding, does not mean self weakness or weakness in general. You stood up and want change in your life and participating in your faiths' rituals does not mean that you are relapsing nor will relapse. Of course this is my opinion and I'm no doc or AA thumper it's just my opinion.
I don't agree with bashing the sponsor, personally that kind of behavior is not healthy. Now, as for the religious/spiritual aspect of your question, it seems to me if you are questioning it then you are on the right path. Some members believe that abstinence is the ONLY way, and for some that may very well be true, however, we are not to be sponsoring people to push our beliefs and ideas onto them nor judge/ridicule them for going against their grain but to help guide us with their experiences/lessons and never to give advice or tell us what to do. Because a sponsor in my opinion should be a friend/adviser not your boss or adjudicator. Also, keeping in mind that we are not perfect, we are all human. If I was in your situation I would have to decline the wine but for you it sounds fine. oh wow, didn't do that on purpose. lol
You need to remove a defective character, your so called sponsor. I've been through a couple of accidents, tasting alcohol. Mouthwash. On a cruise once, waiter brought a samples of some purple sherbet to our table. I took a pretty good spoonful and my taste buds screamed Mad Dog. (Mogan David if you weren't a connoisseur) I've been at this for a while and was given that million dollar pause to think before acting. I swallowed it. Nothing happened. The waiter didn't do anything wrong. He didn't stick a funnel in my mouth. I'm the oddity. Most people can drink alcohol normally. I can't. I really didn't think that spitting on the tablecloth or carpet would be in anybody's best interest, so I didn't. Didn't like the idea but swallowed it anyway. I don't avoid alcohol because of moral objections or some contest (your sponsor's) requires it. I don't drink it because drinking a small amount (how small?) starts a craving etc. I guess this is the first time I've ever shared this story. If someone in a room started the topic, I'd share to be helpful. Otherwise I've learned that AA is full of knuckleheads like your sponsor that don't need to hear my fifth step. The birthday, medallion, marking time business has gotten so out of proportion that I no longer participate. I've been sober since my second meeting a number of years ago. That's how long. On anniversaries, I sincerely thank people for joining us. God has done all the heavy lifting.
Glad you have seen that you have outgrown the jerk and are ready to move on. Glad you joined us.
very true...I thank you for your insight,Jim
Thanks for a sincere mature adult message. I was beginning
to think that all the sensible early timers had died. I have stayed sober since my third A.A. meeting, many years
ago. I love A.A. and also believe that God has done all the
heavy lifting. I just need to obedient and observant. I
usually recommend that a fifth step be done with someone
outside of A.A. unless you can find an A.A. priest. There
are some, but they are really busy.
The celebrations, medallions, marking time is time
filling and time consuming. These activities negate our
"policy" of equality. ANONYMOUS
I live on the tribal lands and take peyote for religious purposes once a year. I've been sober since the middle eighties. This use only becomes controversial when I visit the Anglo-meetings. I'm right with the great spirit, my family, ancestors and the tribal community. As far as I'm concerned alcoholics who abuse sugar, processed foods, nicotine, gambling, sex and pharmaceutical-drugs while in recovery are creating more harm to themselves than my use of peyote for religious purposes once a year.
If you are right with the higher spirit you are right with me.
Thanks Vincent, interesting comments, it is my experience that we in AA seem tolerate of most any kind of religious faith with the exception of Christianty. I am not a Christian and sometimes find myself being a bit sacrilegious but have always encourgaged those with whom I help to return to their faith if it enhances ones sobriety. Not quite sure about "sipping" the wine; think that is very dangerous for folks like us. Are you allowed to substiture any non-alcoholic grape juice for example? Best to you God Bless, Fred
I personally would be afraid to sip the wine, because eventually I would chug the whole thing down on a bad day, but I support any alcoholic who does choose to sip in regards to their faith. I mean really sip, and the way you describe it I think there is nothing to fear. Non-alcoholic beer used by many in the rooms has more alcohol in it then your sip. As the tribal fellow mentioned I've seen worse in AA. Between gambling, sex, food, nicotine and pain medications, some AA'ers can turn to these alternatives in a far greater fashion and pretend to be sober. Honesty is important and who am I to judge another alcoholic?...I'll leave it to the gurus who like to fuss over these things. It keeps them from focusing on their own recovery. Thanks for your thought provoking situation. I really appreciate it sincerely.