Burning Desire to Share
I am grateful that when I came into A.A. that no one
told me that I was the most important person in the room.
I would have thought: If I am the most important person
here, we are all in trouble. My importance (EGO) was
neither built up nor pushed down. I came in as an equal.
I don't believe we ought to make a spectacle of
newcomers, or allow them to make spectacles of themselves.
Bill gives us a clear method of how to carry the message
on page 70 in Alcoholics Anomymous Comes of Age, published
in 1958. Bill desperately needed another alcoholic to talk
to to keep from drinking. Bill finally realized that deeply.
Dr. Bob needed what Bill was describing to him. Bill did
not push anything on him. Bill's message was truly a
suggestion. No pushing or prodding. Just instilling an
idea which might work if Dr. Bob chose to try it.
Bill W. approached Dr. Bob in a position of humility
and weakness. Not from a spiritual hilltop like we do
today. "Well, if you want what I got, you will have to
do what I done, or even more absurd, do what I tells
you to do." ANONYMOUS
I have some years of sobriety by the grace of God. I love my faith & church but many AA's have disdain for religion. I think Bill W. said in big book someplace that we should be quick to see where religious people are right. Coming in as a agnostic & desperate to stay sober I just kept coming back & AA itself became my Higher Power. We can not discuss religion at our AA meeting because they will not allow it. I am ok with that but are we able to discuss religion in this blog. I currently follow my Catholic traditions & find so many former Catholics bashing the church for their problems. I have kept an open mind & am a Catholic convert of 25 years plus. I do read & learn from also Buddhist philosophy to help my brain damaged mind to live in the Now. Is there anyone out there who has similar experiences???
aa in my years is not a religion. It is a way of life for me personally. There are not parades or special happenings on my days that designate my years. We all have a way we live in the halls, the question is can we live that life on life's terms outside the hall. For me personally any mention on God is a turn off. I fill my black hole with a higher power no matter what his/her name is. In fact the Hebrew religion is the closest i have come in tradition of the AA steps and of the traditions.
My first sponsor suggested that, instead of my continual worrying about other people, I had enough to do just working on myself and my program. "What other people think about me is none of my business." Also, I would suggest that after taking time to meditate and pray over it you might want to consider why you have a sponsor who repeats gossip.
When I get upset about the changes that have happened in the program that I do not feel totally comfortable with I try to remember "acceptance is the answer to all my problems today".
Trudging along.....Mary Anne B.
Thank you to everyone who posted a response to Dilemma in Orlando.
This was my first time posting on this site. I can't tell you how much I appreciate the wisdom being shared. It has been an incredible help.
I picture myself as a newcomer. I’m sick to death of being sick, having all my money disappear, my family, her family, our family and the boss I had before I lost my job hating my guts. My court date is coming up. I don’t even want to think about it. Jack Daniels stopped working. I can’t get any thing out of it but falling down sick. I can’t sleep. I can’t stay awake. Somebody said you can’t even get in the door of a mission in the dead of winter if they can smell it on you. What kind of world is this? I break down and promise to go to one of THOSE meetings. Why did I do that? How do I find one of them? I never saw one. There probably aren't any around here. If there was they probably meet one night a month or something. How am I supposed to wait that long? Probably some kind of church deal. I give up. I gotta’ do something.
“Noon or eight o’clock tonight either one? Yea, I know where that is. Been by it a million times.”
There’s a bunch of chairs and some signs and stuff but these people can’t be alcoholics. Laughing, not wearing bum’s clothes. They must be the recruiters or something. Then the prayer meeting starts. At least it’s a short prayer. They read something. I don’t what it’s about. I can’t concentrate. Some guy starts talking. Hey buddy; I didn't come here to hear your hard luck story. Another guy’s turn. Hey, he drank kinda' like me and even drew the same judge. Said he quit two years ago. Can’t be, but nobody acts like he’s lying. Some more hard luck stories and some God stuff but nobody’s jamming it down my throat. Heck, there’s a woman that says she had blank spots when she couldn't remember what happened. I thought I was crazy, but she said it happened to her for years. She claims she swore off too. Maybe she did. The Lord’s Prayer like when I was a kid then some kind of hand jive and cheerleader crap. It’s over. That’s it? The guy that made some sense is gone. I kinda’ wanted to hear some more from him. I get some flake instead. Says the other guy comes to meetings all the time. If I come back, I’ll probably catch him next time. I’ll come back and try another one. What have I got to lose?
End of story.
This was me. This was you. This was yesterday and this is tomorrow.
“…Much of the general public laugh at us as a joke….” No, they hardly know we exist. Any that do know that we exist know all about our meetings from watching some TV show.
Chanting? Over-reading How It Works? It’s going to keep this guy away? It’s not in the top 500 worries he has. I've heard HIW enough times in 33 years to know what it says and I have my own reason for not chanting but I can’t, in any stretch of imagination, believe that either matter one iota to the newcomer. If anyone brings either to a group conscience meeting at my group (the only group that I have any business trying to influence) I’ll vote one way or the other. It won’t make much difference either way.
Four years ago I moved into an apartment with a man in the program. He relapsed shortly after moving in and continued to drink over the course of our lease. I miraculously remained unaffected by it. Eventually drugs came into the picture (even though we had outlined that he could not do them or bring them into our home). It wasn't long before I got wrapped up in it all and began using myself. This went on for several months.
Enough was enough and I moved out. Since that day (which I refer to as the brightest day of my life) my life has been incredible. I have been sober for 2 1/2 years and continue to see the promises fulfilled on a daliy basis.
My dilemma...After returning to the rooms I learned that my former roomate had regained his sobriety (great news). He was attending meeting regularly (a different group than I attend). My sponsor at the time and I had met one night to work on the steps when he informed me that he had gone to lunch with a group of members from my former roommates group and that my name came up. Apparently my exroommate had told everyone that it was I that brought alchol and drugs into our home and that he was simply a victim of an enviroment that I created. My sponsor advised me to confront the lunch attendees and set the record straight (a task that I did not feel comfortable with). First of all, I didn't know who attendied the lunch (I'm not a member of that group) and although aquainted with many, I didn't even know exactly what was said or even where to begin with in a situaiton like this. I told my sponsor that it was gossip and that I did not feel the need to defend myself.
It's been 2 years since that time and I have learned that among this group I am considered a troubled liar and that the story told my former roommate was in fact believed by many. I am bothered by this and haven't been sleeping well at all lately. I am not sure where to go from here. Do I continue to "let it go" (if that's possible)? Do I attend one of his group meetings and unload this in a share (which I don't really belive is appropriate)? Please help.
Thank you for sharing, I can imagine that a situation of this sorts may be a source of resentment, frustration, maybe even worry and fear of judgement & slander.
Much like I have read, I believe that this program suggests of "Keeping my side of the street clean".
I love to use other people to define myself, who I am, what I deserve, etc.
It is completely dishonest, but I find my crazy self, believing that someone is speaking poorly of me, that someone gossiped about me, someone knows my PERSONAL business without my discretion.
I need to remind myself, with prayer - that I can only worry about myself.
The only business that I can ever deal about - is my own.
I need to pray, a lot... For other people who I resent.
And I always need reminders that I have little to no control over any one, any person, any place, and any thing.
You are not alone my friend.
"What other people think of us is none of our business"is something I heard in AA and it's helped me a lot.The eternal question is:"What am I going to do?"If you can't bring yourself to do what your sponsor suggested,ask for another suggestion! Whenever I'm stuck on the horns of a dilemma,I've learned to ask myself:"Which way is it easier to stay sober?"Maybe it's getting it off your chest at a meeting.There is nothing you cannot say at a meeting!Heck,I don't think there is anything I haven't heard at a meeting!
Pg 125 Bottom of 2cd paragraph, on pg 125, Sentence begins "Among us,.............."
Bottom of 3rd paragraph, sentence begins "We alcoholics.............."
Pg 124 1st full paragraph Starts "Henry Ford.............."
Pg 66 start at last paragraph, read to middle of pg 67 ending at sentence "Where were we to blame?"
Then do what your sponsor says to do without reservation
I was told a long time ago that what others think of me is none of my @&*$#^% business! If your "former roommate" is telling lies, then his sobriety is doomed to failure. And this time it won't be your fault. And all those others who are engaged in the gossip (a polite form of murder by character assassination)...? Their sobriety is also going to be a temporary state. True sobriety demands rigorous honesty and requires us to live life on a spiritual basis. Anything else simply won't work. As my sponsor told me, "The dead wood will weed itself out." It may take a while.... But it will happen!
First, ditch that sponsor and all such "friends" in the future. Consider unloading this on the forum as your final
step in "letting it go". You know the truth. You do not
have to prove or explain anything to anyone. Take the high
road and practice forgiveness. Alcoholics can be dishonest,
and some are very ill. Try to be grateful that you and
your friend have both found sobriety.
The sponsor here seems to be the villian. That position
must be eliminated from our fellowship. ANONYMOUS
the truth is I believe the only thing you need to do is keep your side of the street cleaned off.you have no control over anothers action but you do over yours. an I think you need to just keep doing what your doing to stay clean an sober; an just pray about it an pray for that other person,an your higher power will take care of the rest. an if no one has told you they love you today I do.
smile its a good day to be clean an sober.
We belong to a group of people who’s only requirement for entry is drinking excessively and all of the lying, cheating, stealing, law breaking and vomiting that goes with it. I find it difficult to believe that anyone in such a group could get any mileage out of 2 ½ year old gossip. Most of us are so self centered that we hardly give any attention to what anyone but ourselves are doing today. Resentments are the number one killer of alcoholics and that’s exactly what’s troubling you. The fourth through ninth steps kill resentments like sunshine on a vampire.
I used to hate to think about how I have to do the steps. That has changed. I now get to use the steps to make problems like you have go away, or better yet, stop them before they start. Isn't that exactly what we are promised?
We have a saying in AA, we keep OUR side of the street clean.
Just in case no one ever told you, alcoholics LIE! I know because I the biggest liar!
What I do in situations like yours, is first of all I think if they are talking about me, they must be pretty bored! Second, I take a good hard look at what is being said to see if there is some truth in it( we all know how we alcoholics can rationalize a situation so it's not our fault). Third, after inventorying the situation as AA's 4th,10th, and 11th step suggest, I turn my attention to someone I can help to get out of myself.
Lastly, I would be a little wary of a sponsor who tells you to do anything. it works best when we share what we have done in similar situations as I have done. Then you can only blame yourself if or when something goes wrong.
Good luck to you and God bless you
Re-reading the chapter Working With Others, reminded me that instead of "You should read the Big Book", I need to be saying "Myself, I read the Big Book, all of it." So I read it. What did I think, the last 411 pages were for, people who needed more fiber in their diet?
Putting together the information from the AA pioneers stories,
I saw clearly what I'm "Entitled" to.
The AA message.
A town the size of Chicago or a country the size of Canada (and 400 letters requesting help) to carry it to.
For thousands of years alcoholics didn't have that. They had insanity, institutions, death. The message came only 14 years before I was born and only 44 years before I needed it. I found it in minutes a few blocks from my home, a long way from where it had started.
I don't believe I'm "Entitled" to a meeting free of chanting, non approved literature, the right brand of sugar substitute, dust motes in the corner....
If I'm not "Entitled" to something I not getting, I really have no business feeling angry about it or not being able to impose MY WILL on those who HAVE IT ALL WRONG. I think I do my part keeping the group close to the AA ideal as I understand it. I think that's what I'm supposed to do.
I'm grateful that I get infinitely more than I'm entitled to.
I attend a noon meeting where newcomers that announce themselves, are given the AA zombie treatment. The members talk directly to them by name when they are sharing. The group secretary gives them , at no cost, a copy of the Big Book. Oddly, they never, hardly ever return. I don't recall ever being singled out at my first meeting. I would have never returned to that, or any other AA meeting. I am not a member of that meeting,r and I work when they hold their business meetings. The majority of that meeting openly state thy are Christian and they attend a nearby church that they say really helps them in their recovery. I know it must be hard for some of us to restrain our enthusiasm for our newfound freedom, but I don't know how to go about expressing my concerns. Any ideas? Or should I just leave them alone.
tradition 1, 3, 5,
Alcoholics Anonymous is a fellowship of men and women who share their experience, strength and hope with each other that they may solve their common problem and help others to recover from alcoholism.
The only requirement for membership is a desire to stop drinking. There are no dues or fees for A.A. membership; we are self-supporting through our own contributions. A.A. is not allied with any sect, denomination, politics, organization or institution; does not wish to engage in any controversy, neither endorses nor opposes any causes. Our primary purpose is to stay sober and help other alcoholics to achieve sobriety.
One thing is for sure , If they haven't seen any miracles in there own surroundings,(and if it is like churches all over this land) they can and will see more miracles in our surroundings.
The pamphlet "the AA group" available in print or free for viewing online from GSO answers your questions. I wouldn't go there myself but groups have a great deal of freedom. Also the chapter in the Big Book "working with others" isn't just about the "man on the bed". A lot of the content explains exactly what works carrying the message in meetings too.
There is a lot more chanting going on in AA meetings besides, “Keep coming back it works if you work it”,following our closing prayer.
When I identify myself, “Hi my name is Mike and I’m an alcoholic” the group chants, “Hi Mike”. Should I forget to state my name many will chant, “Hi Mike” or “Who are you?” When I finish sharing they chant, “Thanks Mike”.
After reading the part in the Promises, “Are these extravagant promises” members chant, “We think not.” The closing prayer of our meetings is often preceded by, “Who’s the boss?”
There are many other examples I have heard over the years that bear witness that this problem exists and I believe it is getting worse. I am convinced much of the chanting was learned in treatment centers and churches and then introduced to AA meetings. It seems our members today prefer to talk instead of listen and feel the need to comment/chant something about most things they hear at meetings. Herd mentality reigns supreme and soon the majority are participating in this ritual.
The principal of attraction rather than promotion had been replaced by promotion rather than attraction. Chanting is a ritual of many religions and religious cults and in my opinion has no place in AA meetings.
I believe this practice destroys the humility, dignity and serenity of our meetings and I wish groups and members would cease and desist this practise.
Unity. Is the purpose. look around and see who is not apart of the unity, and don't listen to anything that guy has to say.The AA symbol stands for Unity-Recovery-Service. It starts with uinity.
I don't recall the speaker tape, but I vaguely remember hearing about how the "we think not" started. Apparently an alcoholic attended a meeting somewhere in Los Angeles was mentally ill to the extent that he talked to himself, before, during and after the meetings. He would repeat what the speaker at the podium had just stated. That extended to the chairpersons readings as well. Whenever the promises were read, he would blurt out ""we think not" just after "are these extravagant promises?". Some of the members began to beat him to it by chanting it out as a way of mocking the poor fellow. It seems that visitors to the group didn't know what was going on, thought that was really cool how these Californians conducted meetings and took it back to their home groups and began chanting the same thing thinking it was a cool thing to do.
I myself do not follow the chanting folks when the question is asked "Are these extravagant promises?". Instead, I answer the question with a reply of my own understanding..............
With a hardy "HELL NAW".
Works for me and allows new comers to see many know that the 9th step promises do come true, and we are all different , but the same and it is a place for them to fit in too. Unity!!
The point that is missing in this message is that the
12 promises mentioned in step nine, were never intended
to be a stand alone reading. A.A. meetings are a place to
share with other; not to read to each other.
An article in Box 459 a few years ago indicated that
"The Promises" were only meant to be read as part of step
nine, when a member gets to step nine. The article ought
to be reprinted. ANONYMOUS
This is something that we certainly agree on. Others have
told me to cover my ears if it bothers me so much. But as
you have stated, this practice harms A.A. as a whole. Much
of the general public laugh at us as a joke. I suspect that
many members think, "what do we care what the public thinks?. Without a favorable image, A.A. will not grow.
This ritual started in the northeastern U.S. around 1980.
This practice, combined with about eight other blunders
have brought A.A. to its present stagnation.
Do you have any suggestions of bringing this ritual to an
end? Most members in my locale know how much I am opposed
to the chanting. Today at some meetings I will shout as
loud as the loudest chanter, or louder. Many are beginning
to understand how stupid it sounds. Do you also see the
hooting and the hollering also on the increase? It has destroyed
our public image. Any suggestions as how to stop this
nonsense would be welcome. Alcoholics are dying while we
stand around in our "ring around the rosy" circle chanting
Keep coming back, etc, etc, etc. and whatever will be
I try to explain that "My name is Joe and I am an alcoholic", was never meant to be a greeting or saluation.
It is a simple statement, part of step one and part of
step five, admitting it to others.
An A.A. friend was watching one of those shows where
a facsimile of an A.A. meeting was protrayed. My friend
stated that her husband actually laughed out loud when
the group responded "Hi. Joe!.
This ritual has to be stopped, along with reversal of
several customs which have developed over the past 30
years. You read my messages. You know what they are.
A friend recently visited Peru. He said the meetings
were reverent, not a chant was to be heard.
It took about thirty years for these blunders to bring
A.A. to its knees. I just hope and pray that it doesn't
take another thirty years to reverse them. ANONYMOUS
My Story in less than 800 words.
My life has been a road layered with stories of survival, successes and failures, and of ghosts that continue to play a part of my recovery. I have, in hindsight, reflected on both the light and shadow sides of my life.
My alcoholism manifested itself in my life while I was a freshman in high school, I soon became a member of the CIA (Catholic, Irish and Alcoholic), resulting in the negative behavior that goes with alcohol abuse. My self imposed image was that of a hell raiser, a fighter and a lover, and I could always find a fight! I was a pseudo delinquent because I did not have the fortitude to be a genuine delinquent. I was a James Dean wannabe from the day I saw the movie Rebel Without a Cause. I spent “too much time” in front of a mirror hanging an unfiltered Camel from the corner of my mouth, then appearing at the Saturday Night Soda Pop Hop with “a couple of beers under my belt”, giving me the courage I needed to ask someone to dance! In reality, I became the phoniest teenager to walk in the Red River Valley of the North. I had the finger prints of a boy trying to be a man, constantly conspiring against my self.
The stress I put on those who cared about me must have been enormous, having rejected any and all boundaries others attempted to impose on my behavior. I thought I was “beyond cool” only to discover in sobriety that I was but a mere “legend in my own mind”.
I was living outside myself; trying to escape from the realities of life; until a shadow of weariness crept into my life and my journey into recovery began. The moment I uttered the words, “I know I am an alcoholic, I want help”, I did not feel a twinge of awkwardness, just a feeling of total relief. I intuitively knew I could deal honestly with the offenses of my years. I then began to reveal myself in all my strengths and weakness.
For the first time I began to recognize that my identity is inextricably entwined with lives beyond my own and that physically and spiritually, I was an integral participant in the process called life. I came to know about healing because I knew about being wounded.
I am now aware, there is knowing about, and there is knowing. Knowing about is talking the talk, knowing is walking the walk. Knowing there is no longevity in sobriety, knowing sobriety one day at a time, I know I need a higher power. I know there is no mystery, no secret, only a common sense choice to systematically develop a non-self centered perspective and leave behind my unveiled identity. I know I must, to the best of my ability, be supremely honorable and conscientious so my motives can once again be trusted and authenticity will be part of my life. I know there still exists a residue of the wreckage in my life, but my life once again is filled with adventure, fun, humor, and spiritual moments.
Today, I rise with many thoughts charging through my mind like wild horses across the plains of my native North Dakota. I say a simple prayer of gratitude to the spirit that created me. I hope that I will have the chance to focus on that spirit and consecrate the day in a way of my choosing. I am hopeful that my spirit can be free winged and I can launch into each day that lies before me. I also accept the reality that some of my days will be full of jagged edges and jangling moments.
I have learned to believe and accept the small graces of ordinary life and seek the spirit in the small moments of everyday life. I have learned to have fun, to sing like nobody is listening, to dance like nobody is watching, to color to outside the lines, and to think outside the box. I choose to be deeply grounded in my quest for authentic spiritual awakenings and to seek out spiritual places.
Beneath my knowing, there is a spirit greater than I am and I have shaped that spirit to fit my wants and needs. My continued hope is to stand against the strongest winds of temptation, to continue to live in recovery, to live one day at a time, and to know and accept that today is the tomorrow I worried about yesterday.
Jerry G. - Grateful member of MN Alcoholics Anonymous since June 1, 1973.
Thanks for the great share. I need repetition in education to combat the denial that spearheads our disease. I saw myself posing in front of that mirror getting the cigarette just right and bragging about that coupla' beers under my belt, a rebel without a clue exercising my very, very best thinking.
I'm not a member of any mainstream religion. I try to exercise the love of my fellow human beings through Alcoholics Anonymous. I try to improve my conscience contact with God through reading those who, much smarter or more diligent in their search than I, share a world of information about answers to the Big Questions. It's working.
Will share the CIA business with a men's group in Kansas City that's running over with CIA men.
I see references to declining AA membership. I haven’t seen the numbers from the source but for the sake of this discussion, I’ll assume that numbers have declined or growth has slowed at least. I’ve seen the culprit identified as chanting, too much prayer, wasting time reading How it Works ad infinitum. I haven’t seen any, what I would consider facts connecting these causes with the result. I would think that it would be really difficult, if not impossible, to compile the necessary information.
In my own experience and by my own observation I see another factor which would cause membership to decline - the timing of recreational drug use in society. In 1967 I was a senior in a rural high school in the middle of America. I am quite sure that only two people had tried marijuana and, of course, I was one of them and I didn't happen to like it. But, of course I liked alcohol. Liked it a lot. A number of others did too. We had at age 18 legal access and an infinite supply of cheap beer in nearby Kansas and, of course, countless illegal sources.
One of my classmates attended 4 years of college and returned to teach at the same school. She easily saw that drug use had become prevalent in those 4 years. Soon Kansas raised the drinking age to 21. I don’t know what determines our choice, alcohol or other drugs but I would think that a ready supply for early experimentation and use would be a strong factor. Around the world people eat strange food and produce strange booze that no one else would touch, so early conditioning must be an influence. At age 18, given the choice between hashish and fermented horse milk would likely make me a candidate for NA instead of AA. The number of teenagers from grades nine through twelve that have used marijuana in the last month has grown from virtually zero when I was that age to 27 percent last year. That doesn’t count others who use other drugs instead. Dope and booze compete for the same customers. Do you suppose this has any influence on AA’s numbers?
“Lack of power, that was our dilemma.” the Big Book tells me. The program of recovery offered by Alcoholics Anonymous has provided me with access to all the power that I need. The only way anyone has the power to ruin an AA meeting for me is by my giving them that power. I choose not to. If I understand what is meant by “chanting” at meetings I’ve timed it at about 3 seconds. That leaves 59:57 out of an hour when there’s no chanting. A ratio of 1,180 to 1. A friend relates that if he were faced with walking into a room with 99 smiling people and one frowning, he’s inclined to zero in on the one frowning. Does anybody really want to extend that to the 1 in1,180? I can’t afford that kind of character defect. It’s the kind of stuff that makes me miserable enough to want to get drunk to turn it off. I ask my Higher Power to remove that kind of thinking and it’s worked pretty good.
If the chant in question is “It works if you work it” I have my own reason for disliking it. I don’t like programming newcomers that the steps are work. After using them for a number of years, I see them as a gift that merely needs the giftwrap removed and put to work solving my problems or better yet heading them off before they even start. I don’t chant. No one asks me to and it’s not my job to control anybody who wants to.
A chant is a response by the group. When I say my name is
Joe and I am an alcoholic, and the group responds with
HI JOE! that is a chant. Chanting is a custom/ritual of
cults and some religions. Chanting has no place in
Alcoholics Anonymous. It is stupid, weird and makes us
look like idiots in the eyes of the public.
You have the opinion that the steps are not work? I
sometines share the opinion that they are not a punishment,
or penitance of any kind. I like the gift wrapped explanation. I consider my sobriety as a gift from God.
Unlike other gifts, this was a gift that I had to ask for.
Strange too, that in order for me to keep the gift I have
to give it away. The method of giving it away is to
talk about it, and to give the credit to Him. ANONYMOUS
I'm go grateful to this program and my sponcer. My brother passed on 01-11-2013 and I was able to be a son to my mom and dad, to greve with them and suport then at this time. I'm glade to FEEL the pain and not hide from it. Only in AA for 1.5 years and dont know whin I changed but glad I did.
The two people I am most grateful for in AA are my current sponsor and one of the original NY members, Jim B. Without his input AA would have become another religious temperance movement saving souls by providing soup and salvation. He had the vision and the foresight to recognize in order for AA to survive, people had to tone down the “god talk” His great contributions were the third tradition and the term “higher power” as well as “God as you understand him” Jim was instrumental in starting AA in Baltimore and Philadelphia. Imagine that an agnostic/atheist involved with helping alcoholics. How’s that fit? When I came to AA, the meetings I attended seemed antagonistic towards people that weren’t high on god. I asked my sponsor, “Do I have to do the god stuff?” He took me after the meeting to the local diner and over coffee learned me about Jim B. He explained in his day AA was more open to agnostics and atheists but, the new AA (Angels Anonymous) as he calls it wants to rid the program of the Jim B.’s. They should get rid of the Jim Beams and not the Jim B.’s. He said people have twisted AA into unrecognizable shapes and taken it where it doesn’t belong. He finally answered my question. “No you don’t have to do the god stuff.” He also said “Live and let Live” and “Don’t get into discussions with anyone over it. People in the rooms that are hateful and close minded will never see the true light of recovery.” So whenever I am at a meeting and the topic is God, I just say, “I found it not necessary to believe in God to stay sober and I’ll pass.” Frank R. San Diego
The AA program is suggestive only it does not demand that we beleieve anything,each member decide for themselves what they want to happpen in their life. our literature will show how the first 100 recovered.
What would have happened if Jim B. and Hank P. had
gone to an all night New York diner and discussed these
issues between themselves? No, they stayed and fought the
good fight in order that any alcoholic could join A.A.
They kept the doors to our A.A. rooms open regardless of
one's beliefs or non beliefs.
Of course Alcoholics Anonymous has been distorted and
twisted. We have become some sort of religious temperance
movement, viewed by many as a strange religious cult.
But our founders and members like Jimmy and Hank left
all the information we need to restore the effectiveness our fellowship.
I believe that many A.A. members today are closed minded.
I don't agree that many are hateful. They are defending
beliefs which have been taught them by ignorant A.A.
members. Members like myself who for so many years was also
ignorant. I simply did not understand the IDEA offered to
Bill W. in the spring of 1935 by Dr. Silkworth. The
"little Dr. who loved drunks" offered a technique, a unique
method of passing the message (solution) to other drinkers
who suffer from our disease.
I still have hope that enough A.A. members will be
willing to do the investigation, in order to prevent the
complete distruction of Alcoholics Anonymous. But we are
near the cliff and could very easily fall.
I find it real necessary to do the GOD stuff. Or higher power. ..
After reading the comments about Hank and Jim, I felt led to reread their stories in the big book. I would suggest all who read this post to read Hank and Jim’s stories in their entirety. I think there stories are a great example of how AA’s program is spiritual and not religious, and parts of their stories should be posted here. This is the last line of Hank P’s story from the first edition of the big book, called the unbeliever: Brrr, this floor is cold on my knees . . . why are the tears running like a river down my cheeks . . . God, have mercy on my soul!
Here are some excerpts from Jim B’s story in the big book, the vicious cycle: “My loneliness was worse than it had ever been before, for now even my own kind had turned against me. This time it really hurt, more than any hangover ever had. My brilliant agnosticism vanished, and I say for the first time that those who really believed, or at least honestly tried to find a Power greater than themselves, were much more composed and contented than I had ever been, and they seemed to have a degree of happiness I had never known…….. For a long time the only Higher Power I could concede was the power of the group, but this was far more than I had ever recognized before, and it was at least a beginning. It was also an ending, for never since june 16, 1938, have I had to walk alone.
Around this time our big AA book was being written, and it all became much simpler; we had a definite formula that some sixty of us agreed was the middle course for all alcoholics who wanted sobriety, and that formula has not been changed one iota down through the years……. Since I was still a theological rebel-that the work God should be qualified with the phrase “as we understand Him”-for that was the only way I could accept spirituality………..I found myself in the middle of a brand new group. When I started to tell the boys how we did it in New York and all about the spiritual part of th e program, I found they would not believe me unless I was practicing what I preached. Then I found that as I gave in to this spiritual or personality change, I was getting a little more serenity. In telling newcomers how to change their lives and attitudes, all of a sudden I found I was doing a little changing myself. I had been to self-sufficient to write a moral inventory, but I discovered on pointing out to the new man his wrong attitudes and actions that I was really taking my own inventory, and that if I expected him to change, I would have to work on myself too…………. “and I still say that as long as I remember that Jan 9 in Washington, that is how ling, by the grace of God as I understand Him, I will retain a happy sobriety”
If Hank can get down on his knees and as Jim put it, “my brilliant agnosticism vanished”, work to grow spiritually (not religious) you and I can too.
In step 2 we ask ourselves do I now believe or am I willing to believe in a Power greater than myself. As soon as a man can say he does believe or is willing to believe, we emphatically assure him he is on his way (big book page 47)
Good luck to you and God (as I understand Him) bless you!
Frank, that's very hopeful and a great way to stay out of "the debating society." But has there been some other way of expressing a reliance on a "Power greater than yourself"? Is it a matter of just choosing the right words - nothing that would scare off a newcomer - or do you not believe that the Power is some kind of Deity? Or do you stay sober despite that you DON'T believe in an HP? I'd love to hear your take because I know a helluva lot of guys who can't get past step 2! Thanks
To me, our "AA Fellowship" has been confused with being the "AA program." The "AA program" is usually associated with the Big Book and Twelve Steps whcih contains all the confusing god language troubling many and scaring others away and some to their deaths. The "AA Fellowship" is defined by the Preamble and is all-inclusive. In my experience the Agnostic Groups follow the latter and adhere to the Preamble. Please read it. The Preamble tells me that whether one believes in a higher power or not this should not be an issue in AA because we are asked to share OUR EXPERIENCE, STRENGTH AND HOPE. A misjudgment that occurs is people who find they can recover without a higher power are assumed to be against the people who do. This is not true. I am supportive of all members. We are all equals in AA. Some like the god tango and some like the humanistic fox-trot. In my own recovery, I did not see AA as moral disease. My sins did not make me an alcoholic. I looked at it more from the biochemical aspect involving my brain. I needed to refrain from putting alcohol in my body. Once I went through withdrawal and the obsessive-compulsive aspect of addiction declined enough I discovered I was an immature 40 year man with an explosive personality still acting like a juvenile delinquent. All of a sudden all the pain I had been hiding with alcohol started to seep into my consciousness and I started to feel anxiety. Some find god helps them with these feelings. I found the slogans, healthy diet, exercise and the principals helpful. But the majority of wisdom I received did not come from “the AA Program.” It came from living in the real world and “the AA Fellowship” By listening to people in the rooms sharing their vulnerable experiences in recovery and hearing the tricks they actually did to overcame situations which were causing pain, helped me tremendously. One does not have to be holy or religious to recover from alcoholism.
Most of the language in the pre emblem was taken from the forward to the first edition of the book alcoholics anonymous. The then editor of the grapevine actually used the big book! I think we should too.
Thanks Frank R. I think I heard you share at a meeting in San Diego once while visiting. You said, "So whenever I am at a meeting and the topic is God, I just say, “I found it not necessary to believe in God to stay sober and I’ll pass.” It's funny you say that because I say a similiar thing but, luckily that topic doesn't come up very often. Our group feels talking specifically about God is an outside issue and can be disruptive in the discussion meetings. Of course we are okay when someone shares about their "Higher Power" There is even a few "Jesus" followers in our group but, they understand the true nature of Preamble and respect others beliefs. The majority of members in my group don't really care what a person does or does not believe in. Every once in a while a control freak will come into the group and disrupt it with dogma but, we don't take the bait and they move on somewhere else where I imagine they will fulfill their self-appointed role as the Big Kahuna of AA. Anyways, thanks again. Fast Eddie
I appreciate your experience. From what I remember, Jim B and Hank P are credited with the idea of “higher power” and God as I understand Him. The later is the only phrase that is repeated twice in the list of AA’s 12 steps.
If I remember correctly, Hank went back to drinking and never did return. I recall reading in “pass it on”, that Jim had gone out of town for business and found himself in trouble. The AA members at the time decided to let him go it alone since he didn’t believe in God. Jim talked of being alone in the motel when he came across a bible. He said nothing more of the experience. When he returned to New York, he snuck into Bill W’s house during the night and appeared in the morning asking to join in their morning meditation. Now this is not verbatim , just what I remember reading. It shows that even Jim gave meditation a try.
AA offers a “spiritual” program of action, whether a person can stay sober on a nonspiritual basis depends on how far advanced their alcoholism is. Spiritual and religion are two separate things. When an AA member speaks in an AA meeting or to a newcomer we ought to all use general terms like Higher Power, or God as I understand Him.
I came to AA as an agnostic, the chapter to the agnostics in the big book helped me greatly. As an agnostic, I was able to say I was willing to believe in a power greater than myself. I was then able to practice the prayer, meditation, and self-examination that the program of AA suggests. In a short time I was able to see that I had a God all along, it was me! Following my best ideas I became an alcoholic. Alcohol beat me into a state of willingness, that willingness allowed me to grow spiritually, which I now believe is the single most important aspect of my life.
Let’s remember that about half of the people who come in the doors of AA are atheist or agnostics. In our book “alcoholics anonymous”, Chapter 4 states clearly AA’s guide for the atheist or agnostic.
Good luck to you and God bless you,
If a belief in God had been required to be a member of
A.A., Jim would not have stayed around long enough to be
"saved". Somehow Jim knew the importance of being all
inclusive. If Jim was the member holed up in the hotel
room (I have read enough of your messages to trust them),
Jim's was a conversion story. Jim was allowed to "come
to believe". I believe that most alcoholics approaching
A.A. will come to believe if we don't push them away
by telling them to Find God and find Him now. We again have
to study and use that powerful tool suggested by Dr.
Silkworth, whom I believe was agnostic or atheistic.
You were allowed to grow spiritually at a pace you
weRE able to comprhend. Why do you insist that we tell
other newcomers they need to find God NOW? ANONYMOUS
Now that I think about it, Jim B is Ed in the third tradition in the 12x12, I think I mispoke and said in pass it on earlier. It's a great example of how the third tradition started so "alcoholics" wouldn't be thrown out of AA. Now we use it to keep "nonalcoholics out of AA".
Today is my first day of sobriety. I started drinking when I was 18 with my college boyfriend and his friends. I never learned how to drink responsibly. Most of the time I would drink too much only on the weekends. When my father became ill with cancer, almost eight years ago, I started drinking every day. I told myself it was because of my dad's illness but he has been gone for five years and I'm still doing it. I've been married for fifteen years and will not be married much longer if I don't stop. My husband didn't say anything at first but it is really bothering him now. It also affects my daughter's happiness. She has left me notes in my purse telling me that I just don't learn. She is sixteen but wise beyond her years. However, I have tried to stop for them before and that just wasn't enough. As much as I love them I have to do it for me and not because they will be mad if I don't. I've read posts here and feel that this is a good place for me. I just need to be around people who understand what I'm doing and why. Oddly enough I was thrilled to read a post about "Am I That Bad"? Not because that poster feels that way - it is a horrible way to feel - but because I understand it. I spent most of my life feeling like I was bad. Then I'd drink too much and screw up and it would just reinforce that badness to me. It was a vicious cycle. I have worked through the issue of feeling like I'm bad. Now I just have one more hurdle. Thank you for having this place.
first of all I wont to say; you are the most impotant person;an im really really glad your here smile
You are absolutely right,you do need the support of people who understand what you are trying to do.The fellowship of AA understands because that's what we are trying to do:Don't drink one day at a time.To most of us,AA is meetings. No meetings,no AA......The Grapevine is "our meeting in print"but I've never read the story of someone who stayed sober on the Grapevine alone.Please don't insist on being the first one.Don't make this harder than it has to be.Take advantage of the meetings-they can be magical.
Hopefully, this is your third day of sobriety. You began
to drink every day. You did what you had to do in order to
drink every day. Now you are beginning to not drink every
day (which, by the way, is possible). You will have to
exert a bit more energy in order to not drink every day.
Find A.A. meetings in your area. Go there. Tell us
who you are and why you are here. If possible, go to a
meeting every day for a while. Try different meetings.
Listen to others share how they stay sober. Spend the
time and energy you spent drinking, learning how not
I grew up with an alcoholic father and an angry mother.
I hated him for being "weak", but I picked up a drink and
soon became weaker than my father. I have been sober for
many years and today watch my son as he struggles with
his addictions. I give him the same advice, go to meetings.
If you don't like the meetings, keep going and eventually
you will like them. You will find a group of alcoholics
and will "be there" for each other. Your drinking bothers
your husband and daughter more than you will ever know.
Many times our friends and families just give up in dispair.
Their great love often turns to hate. Don't drink. Be
careful with over the counter medications. Use nothing
containing alcohol. Welcome to your new life. ANONYMOUS