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RE Norman

Ha, ha, ha! Good one! I am gratefull for the belly laugh! You didn't mention that on page 249 of Dr. Bob and the Good Old Timers, That Norman was handicaped.

Norman was Blind!!! Of course Norman didn't read the big book. He couldn't! He did however get the ball rolling in having the BB made into brail so blind members could read it. I guess Norman heard enough about the BB that he thought it was important enough to have it translated to brail.

Thanks again for the good laugh!


Thanks for saving me from having to look him up.

Step 6

Step 6:Were entirely ready to have God remove all these defects of character.

After reading the first 5 steps and feeling confident that I haven’t missed anything, I move on to step 6

Am I now ready to have God remove all the things I have found objectionable? To me, the things I found objectionable were listed in the 4th column of my 4th step. Selfish, self-seeking, dishonest, and frightened.

If I am not willing to give up selfishness, I have to remember in step 3 that the first requirement for this program is I had to be convinced that any life run on selfwill can hardly be a success. If I can’t give it up I have to pray for the willingness.

If I am not willing to give up self-seeking(taking actions for my selfish gain), I have to pray for the willingness.

If I am not willing to give up dishonesty(lying to others or myself), I have to pray for the willingness.

If I am not willing to give up fear(worrying I will not get something or lose something I have). I need to pray for the willingness.

I now remember when I first wanted what you in AA had. I stated that I would go to any length to get what I saw you had. I also remember the requirement in step 3. How I was convinced that any life run on self-will could hardly be a success.
I am now willing to give my selfishness, self-seeking, dishonest, and fear to GOD. I complete this step when I take the action in step 7.

This is just my experience with step 6. Thanks for reading.

Joined: 2012-02-23
Step 5

Step 5
In the bb pg 72 it says,” We have put our finger on the weak items in our personal inventory. Now these are about to be cast out. This requires action on our part, which when completed, will mean that we have admitted to God, to ourselves, and to another human being, the exact nature of our wrongs. This brings us to the fifth step.
I’ll list a few lines from page 72 &73: “in actual practice, we usually find a solitary self-appraisal insufficient.

The best reason first: If we skip this vital step, we may not overcome drinking.

Trying to avoid this humbling experience, they have turned to easier methods. Almost invariably they got drunk. Having persevered with the rest of the program, they wondered why they fell. We think the reason is that they never completed their housecleaning.

They only thought they had lost their egoism and fear; they only thought they had humbled themselves. But they had not learned enough of humility, fearlessness and honesty, in the sense we find it necessary, until they told someone else all their life story.

Then on the end of 73 and beginning of 74,”We must be entirely honest with somebody if we expect to live long in this world.

The bb goes on to talk about finding the right person to hear our 5th step. Then on page 75 it says,” When we have decided who is to hear our story, we waste no time. We have a written inventory and we are prepared for a long talk…….

Once we have taken this step, withholding nothing, we are delighted…………

Returning home we find a place where we can be quiet for an hour, carefully reviewing what have done. We thank God from the bottom of our hart that we know him better. Taking this book we turn to the page which contains the 12 steps. Carefully reading the first five proposals we ask if we have omitted anything,……..If we can answer to our satisfaction, we then look at step 6.

To me this is step 5 in a nutshell. The directions are listed in full on pages 72-75, this is meant to be just a snippet.

I think if we practice what it says in chapter 7 about asking the new person to read this volume, they have a beginning of understanding what the AA program is about. Then when they get to this point, there are no surprises.
I personally had to be reminded that I told my sponsor when we began the steps that I was willing to go to any length for sobriety. That got me over the hump. I chose to do my 5th step with my sponsor. It was great, I finally felt I was part of the human race!

Remember, the Big Book doesn’t tell YOU what to do. It tells ME exactly what to do.
This is my experinece with step 5. Thanks for reading.

Joined: 2012-03-04
re: Step 5, "The Big Book way"

Something I seldom hear about step 5, are these quotes from the “Big Book,” p74:

“…Rightly and naturally, we think well before we choose the person or persons with whom to take this intimate and confidential step. Those of us belonging to a religious denomination which requires confession must, and of course will want to go to the properly appointed authority, whose duty it is to receive it….”

“…If we cannot or would rather not do this, we search for our acquaintance with a closed – mouthed, understanding friend. Perhaps our doctor or psychologist will be the friend. It may be one of our own family, but we cannot disclose anything to our wives or parents which will hurt them or make them unhappy…”

“The Twelve Steps and Twelve Traditions” also says:

“..This person may be one’s sponsor, but not necessarily so…”

“…It may turn out, however, that you’ll choose someone else for the more difficult and deeper revelations. This individual may be entirely outside of A.A. – for example, your clergyman or your doctor. For some of us, a complete stranger may prove the best bet…”

A lot of people seem to take step five with their sponsor. This may not necessarily be a good thing. Perhaps they don’t realize that AA sponsorship does not imply this, nor should a sponsor insinuate this or coerce a newcomer to do this. A newcomer is not required to reveal any intimate details about themselves to their amateur sponsor, unless of course, they wish to do so. The fellowship might be healthier if more alcoholics took step five as suggested in the “Big Book”; not with their sponsor, but with a properly trained professional outside the fellowship (someone who is not an alcoholic) such as a psychologist, or a cleric in a religion of their choice.

"Step 5"

The book clearly gives an individual a choice in selecting the person to hear their 5th step. I did mine with my sponsor for two main reasons, 1. I wanted someone who knew something about the 12 steps, knew what I was doing and why, 2. If an issue came up in the future that related to my 5th step I wanted the person I did the 5th step with to be easily accessible to me.

Ray C.

RE: "step five"

What would you do if your sponsor got drunk? Would you
follow him off the cliff? Many professionals have knowledge
of the value of confession. This is not the responsibility of a "sponsor". I certainly would not want the person
sitting next to me at an AA meeting to know all about my
sins. I prefer to follow the Big Book and the 12 & 12. Joe

re step 5

I personally prefer my sponsor to know all my mistakes. I believe if the person sitting next to me knows all about me, I am more likely not to repeat those mistakes.


Step five

I certainly would not want to reveal the mistakes of my
past to someone in the meeting who has a hand up to be my
sponsor. Or with someone assigned to me at my first meeting.
These are what makes today's A.A. a cult, combined with
the chanting. This is one reason for our lack of growth in
the past two decades. A strange religious cult, as described
in the video made for public television A&E "Inside Alcoholics Anonymous" 1999. Thanks for finding these quotes
and posting them. ANONYMOUS

Joined: 2012-02-23
Step 4

Step 4: made a searching a fearless moral inventory
On page 64 of the bb it says, “Though our decision was a vital and crucial step”(step 3) “ It could have little or permanent effect unless at once followed by a strenuous effort to face, and to be rid of the things in ourselves which had been blocking us. Our liquor was but a symptom. So we had to get down to causes and conditions”.

FIRST, we searched out the flaws in our make-up which caused our failure. Being convinced that self ( from step 3), manifested in various ways, was what had defeated us, we considered its common manifestations. ( I consider the 7 deadly sins at this point. Anger, greed, sloth, pride, lust, gluttony, and envy)

When the spiritual malady is overcome, we straighten out mentally (how I think) and physically ( how I act). In dealing with resentments, we set them on paper. We listed people, institutions, or principals with whom we are angry. (This is the first column. Just like the example on page 65, I list the names. Sometimes only one per page if I now there will be several causes.)
We asked ourselves why we were angry. ( this is the cause column or column 2 on page 65. I then make the list of causes from top to bottom).

On our grudge list we set opposite each name our injuries. Was it our self-esteem, our security, our ambitions, our personal, or sex relations, which had been interfered with? ( This is column 3. The 5 instincts just listed are what make me tick. If someone interferes with them or I am afraid they will I get resentful.)

On page 66 there are some great words of wisdom. I will list a few sentences: To conclude that others were wrong was a fear a most of us ever got. It is plain that a life which includes deep resentment leads only to futility and unhappiness. This business of resentment is infinitely grave. We found that it is fatal. If we were to live, we had to be free of anger.

This was our course: we realized that the people who wronged us were perhaps spiritually sick.

On the top of pg 67 we have the 4th step prayer. Then We avoid retaliation or argument. If we do, we destroy our chance of being helpful.

Referring to our list again. Putting out of our minds the wrongs other had done, we resolutely looked for our own mistakes. Where had we been selfish, dishonest, self-seeking and frightened? ( this is column 4). When we saw our faults we listed them. We placed them before us in black and white. We admitted our wrongs honestly and were willing to set these matters straight.

Next, we inventory fear and sex. There are several prayers listed up to page 71 dealing with fear and sex. I inventory with the same format as resentments.

I would like to write more, but I have written too much already. I would like to say this inventory out of the bb taught me how to get over resentments, fear, and sex problems. When they crop up again, I use this method of inventory in my daily 10th step.

This is my experience. This is the way I was taught to work the 4th step out of the bb. Over the years I will do an annual or semi-annual 4th step if I haven’t kept up with my daily 10th. It is very simple. If I am not willing to do this, I have not done step 3. If I have not done step 3, I did not do step 2. If I didn’t do step to, It boils down to I haven’t admitted complete defeat in step 1.

Again, this is my experience with step 4.


This is the step that i am approaching now. Thanks for the hints at how to do it.

Step 4

Bill W. gives us a specific means of doing step 4. These
are found beginning on page 50 in the 12&12. There are
about thirty questions to be answered. ANONYMOUS

Step 3

Step 3
Before I get into step 3, I have to look at pg 60 in the bb. It starts with – “our description of the alcoholic (chapter 2&3), the chapter to the agnostic (chapter 4), and our personal adventures before and after (chapter 1 & from Dr. Bobs Nightmare on) make clear 3 pertinent ideas:
(a) That we were alcoholic and could not manage our own lives. ( step 1)
(b) That probably no human power could have relieved our alcoholism (step 1&2)
(c) That God could and would if he were sought. (step 2)”
Then continuing on page 60 it says “Being convinced we were at step 3……Just what do we mean by that, and just what do we do?
The first requirement is that we be convinced that any life run on self will can hardly be a success.
Page 62 it says “Selfishness-self-centeredness! That we think is the root of our troubles……..
So our troubles, we think, are basically of our own making……..Above everything, we alcoholics must be rid of this selfishness. We must or it kills us! God makes that possible……Neither could we reduce our self-centeredness much by wishing or trying on our own power…….This is the how and why of it. First of all, we had to quit playing God…..Next, we decided that hereafter in this drama of life, God was going to be our Director…….We were now at step 3…(prayer)
This was only a beginning, though if honestly and humbly made, an effect, sometimes a very great one was felt at once.
You can read the full step in the bb. This is where the language in the bb changes dramatically. I have to remember, that this was only a decision. Before I can take action, I have to make a decision to do so. I believe my will and life is how I think and act.
Now that I have asked God to direct how I think and act, I have to take the action necessary to carry out that decision. To me that action is to continue on with the remaining 9 steps. But first things first, I start with step 4.

If I am working with a newcomer that is not willing, it says in chapter 7 to reread the chapter on alcoholism. If they still are not willing, let them try it there own way. before long alcohol will either make them willing or kill them. the choice is theirs.
Thanks for reading.

Chapter Seven

Could you tell me where it says in chapter 7 to reread
the chapter on alcoholism. Do we reread it for ourselves?
Do we read it to the newcomer or for the benefit of the newcomer? Or do we "suggest" to the newcomer that she/he
reread chapter 7 or the chapter on alcoholism.
If an alcoholic has agreed to listen to me for a few
minutes, and says that he/she is not interested, I think
I am supposed to thank that person for listening to me.
That person has helped me to maintain my own sobriety.
We are not to try to pressure A.A. or any of our
beliefs on anyone. Attraction, not promotion is the key.
I believe that here on I-SAY we ought to be as
accurate as possible. This may be the only A.A.
material that some alcoholics read. ANONYMOUS

Joined: 2012-02-23
RE Chapter seven, my apologies

Sorry, misquote. I was thinking of the original manuscript of the big book. On page 60, just before it says being convinced we were at step 3, it says something along the lines of “if you are not convinced of a,b, and c, reread it up to this point or throw it away!
I had that mixed up with chapter 7, at the bottom of page 91, It says, “Show him the mental twists which leads to the first drink of a spree. We suggest you do this as we have done it in the chapter on alcoholism.

I apologize. I should have said what I do is ask them to reread the chapter on alcoholism again, or if they want, I will read it to them. If I have ask him before we start, if he wants to quit for good and will go to any extreme to do so (pg 90) I also refer to that. Also on page 95 it says to ask them to read this book in the interval. After that he must decide if he wants to go on. If he has read this book, there should be no surprises.

I also like to refer to Page 94,” Outline the program of action…….” At the bottom of page 94,”If he shows interest lend him your copy of this book”. Also on page 96,” Suppose now you are making your second visit to a man. He has read this volume and says he is prepared to go through with the 12 steps of the program of recovery.

Again, sorry for the misleading information.

Origional Manuscript.

Too many of today's members have returned to the
origional manuscript. We have a local group who read the
manuscript version of How It Works. They read "on your knees" and "throw the book away". The worst mistake is
following our directions instead of following our path.
I am curious if you teach the steps and the big
book as an elder. I think it is the responsibility of
the group to teach, not one on one as a tutor or
Personally when I approach a newcomer, I offer a
copy of the third edition of the Big Book and suggest
reading some of the stories. If they want to read
further, I suggest that they begin at the front of
the book with the Doctor's opinion.
I would never tell a newcomer to open to chapter
five to start reading. Bill W. placed How It Works
in chapter five for a special timed effect. I believe
that reading this material to the newcomer is a
terrible mistake. Yet we do it all the time. Even
Overeaters anonymous has followed our lead and it
has become a part of their format.
My concern is A.A.'s loss of half a million members
since 1992, and our current stagnation. Our mistakes
have caused our loss of effectiveness. We must admit
our blunders and correct them if A.A. is going to
survive. If the newcomer says he is prepared
to "go through with the steps", give her/him a copy of our
12&12. Bill W. tells us how to do the steps. Just be
there to answer any questions the newcomer may ask. I
usually suggest a weekly step meeting where the group
can teach the steps. This is a lifetime practice. I don't
believe they are meant to be taught in a workshop setting.

Joined: 2012-03-04
re: Original Manuscript

I agree with what you say. I assume “the original” manuscript referred to here is not in fact the original but a copy of a pre-publication multilithed draft of the Big Book which I understand is now being published by organizations outside AA. Before the Big Book was published in 1939, 400 pre-publication multilithed copies of the draft manuscript were distributed to alcoholics, non alcoholic AA friends, (psychiatrists, clerics, etc); for their suggested amendments. (Pass it On, pp 200-205) The chapters “Bill’s Story” and “There Is a Solution” were also multilithed and circulated by Bill W. before publication of the Big Book, to raise money in 1938. (Pass it On, p193)

These multilithed pre- publication draft manuscripts were yet to be finally edited and approved by the fellowship’s group conscience. Therefore, to call any of these multilithed drafts the “original” manuscript can only be described as the dishonest rationalizing of half truth into deceit. The only manuscript which can honestly be claimed to be the original manuscript is the final draft edit, approved by the fellowship and published in 1939, the first edition of the Big Book “Alcoholics Anonymous”. We can all see this re-printed in the first 164 pages of the current edition. These pages remain unchanged from the original. Some of the original stories in the section at the back of the book were taken out in later editions in order to make way for newer stories. These are now published in “Experience Strength and Hope.”

As for the getting down on your knees, protests in the fellowship at the time caused the kneeling suggestion in the draft multilithed manuscript not to be printed in the original Big Book (first edition). This was the New York group’s response, as recalled by Bill W:

“… In one of the steps I had even suggested that the newcomer get down on his knees.
When this document was shown to our New York meeting the protests were many and loud. Our agnostic friends didn't go at all for the idea of kneeling. Others said we were talking altogether too much about God. And anyhow, why should there be twelve steps when we had done fine on six? Let's keep it simple, they said.
This sort of heated discussion went on for days and nights. But out of it all there came a ten-strike for Alcoholics Anonymous. Our agnostic contingent, speared by Hank P. and Jim B., finally convinced us that we must make it easier for people like themselves by using such terms as "a Higher Power" or "God as we understand Him!" Those expressions, as we so well know today, have proved lifesavers for many an alcoholic. They have enabled thousands of us to make a beginning where none could have been made had we left the steps just as I originally wrote them….” (Bill W. Extract from “A Fragment of history: Origin of the Twelve Steps” The Language of the Heart p 201, AA Grapevine July 1953)

Here’s a newcomer’s reaction to the multilithed draft which had been given to psychiatrist Harry Tiebout M.D; the doctor decided to try it out on one of his alcoholic patients with spectacular results:

“…Indeed, its heavy larding with the word "God," so angered Marty that she threw it out her window, flounced off the grounds of the swank sanitarium where she was, and proceeded to tie on a big bender…” (Bill W. “In Memory of Harry” The Language of the Heart p 369, AA Grapevine July 1966)

After some persuading Marty M. did eventually read it, went to a meeting, achieved long term sobriety and became a notable AA member. She can be looked up in the indexes of “Pass it On” and “The Language of the Heart.”

If we want AA to continue to be inclusive to all alcoholics irrespective of their creed or nationality and for AA to grow worldwide, then it doesn’t make any sense to me that some groups appear to be trying to turn the clock back in order for them to repeat the past mistakes of the Oxford Group. The Oxford Groups and their methods in dealing with alcoholics were not early Alcoholics Anonymous groups and should not be confused as such.

Step 2

Came to believe God could restore us to sanity.

Before I say anything. When I speak of God, I am refering to my own conception of God. Therefore when you speak of God I give you the same courtesy.

From what I have read in the big book, I have gathered that "insanity" is defined as the lack of ability to think straight where alcohol is concerned. Nothing more or less.

In chapter 4 We Agnostics, it states that almost half our origiional membership was athiest or agnostic. My understanding of an athiest is they believe there is proof therer is no God. My understanding of an agnostic is that they don't know either way. they are without knowledge where God is concerned.

On pg 45 in the bb it says "lack of power was our dilemma. We had to find a power by which we could live, and it had to be a power greater than ourselves. Obviously. But where and how were we to find this power?"

"Well, that's exactly what this book is about. Its main object is to enable you to find a power greater than yourself which will solve your problem.

On pg 47 it says "we needed to ask ourselves but one short question. Do I now believe, or am I willing to believe, that there is a power greater than myself?"

I think an agnostic says they do believe, and an athiest says they are willing.

On pg 53 it says, "When we became alcoholics, crushed by a self imposed crisis we could not postpone or evade, we had to fearlessly face the porposition that either God is, or he isn't. What was our choice to be?

To me that is step 2. I belive this is why it is so important to use the big book with newcomers. If they are not willing, then let our greatest advocate and promoter "ALCOHOL" do its persuading untill they are ready.

Thanks for reading.

Big Book

How do we use the Big Book with newcomers? Do we leave
the Book and the other spiritual tools at the new member's
feet, or do we cram them down their throats. Most of today's
sponsors, teachers and preachers are crammers. To reach them
at depth, we must allow the new person and all other members
to make their own decision, without any prodding or pushing
from us. Who are WE to ask "ARE YOU READY YET! We should
be saying "thanks for listening to me, that is how I stay
sober, by sharing my experience, strength and hope. Don't
ask, suggest, demand anything of the newcomer. If they
eventually show interest in the steps, offer them the
12 & 12. Allow every member do the steps when they decide
for themselves they are ready. Many of us work the steps,
some of us just practice them in our lives. They really
are suggestions. Honest! ANONYMOUS

Joined: 2012-01-18
Re: Big Book

Anonymous writes: "Many of us work the steps, some of us just practice them in our lives. They really are suggestions."
I got sober with the second edition of the Big Book, used the third edition to continue on the road to recovery and now use the fourth edition. Not a one of those said the steps are merely suggested. What they say is, "Here are the steps we took WHICH ARE SUGGESTED AS A PROGRAM OF RECOVERY."
From "The American Heritage Dictionary":
sug·gest (sg-jst, s-jst) KEY
sug·gest·ed, sug·gest·ing, sug·gests
To offer for consideration or action; propose.
To serve as or provide a motive for; prompt or demand."
The steps are not a list of things we might do when we feel like getting around to them, they are "A Program Of Recovery."
Knowing and admitting I am an alcoholic means nothing unless I believe there is a solution to my problem.
Knowing there is a solution means nothing unless I'm willing to take the treatment necessary to solve that problem.
Being willing to have my problem solved means nothing unless I take the necessary action, which is the remaining nine steps. ("Though our decision was a vital and crucial step, it could have little permanent effect unless AT ONCE followed by a strenuous effort to face, and to be rid of, the things in ourselves which had been blocking us." page 64)
The belief that the twelve steps are merely a dozen suggestions keeps far too many suffering alcoholics suffering.


Here are the steps we took, WHICH ARE SUGGESTED AS A
PROGRAM OF RECOVERY. How can you say that not a one of
those said the steps are merely suggestions? It is there
in black and white. You wrote it in capitol letters. I
personally do not like the phrases "mere suggestions",
or "only suggestions". They are suggestions. I think what you are missing is the true meaning of suggestion. This is the first definition in my dictionary: 1. To mention, introduce, or propose an idea for consideration, possible action. We keep far too many alcoholics suffering by trying
to cram the dosen suggested steps down their throats. And all at the same time in "How It Works". ANONYMOUS

Second Edition Big Book

I hope you still have your copy of the second issue
of the Big Book. I often wonder how many times "fellowship"
has been changed to "Fellowship". In today's A.A. it
has been changed almost everywhere except our preamble. The
preamble still reads fellowship. But that will evolve into
Fellowship soon. ANONYMOUS

"Prompt or Demand"

That definition of "suggest" interests me. Bill W. wrote
later in our 12&12, first printing 1953, Page 26. I copy:
First, Alcoholics Anonymous does not demand that you believe
anything. All of its twelve steps are but suggestions." The
sponsor of that era says relax, take it easy. Today's
sponsor says: That One is God, may you find Him now!
Alcoholics by the thousands were joining the fellowship
of the 1950's. Have you looked at our growth recently? The
result of todays approach is Nil!!
The definition of suggest which I feel fits A.A. is :"to indicate indiretly or without plain expression. Another definition is: the process of inducing a thought, sensation, or action in a receptive person without using persuasion and without giving rise to the reflection in the recipient. This is a far cry from: These are the steps we took! Are you ready to take them yet? Find God Now or forever be darned!! ANONYMOUS


It just seems to me that you are making the twelve
steps requirements, instead of suggestions. Our early
members Hank and Jimmy fought hard day and night to
get the steps labled as suggestions. But I believe this
fight was fought after most of the Big Book had been
written. I also believe that is why the whole book
was described as suggestive only, as written on page
164 of the book. Hold on to that third edition. That
was just the best! Of course that is pure opinion.

Joined: 2012-02-23
Re Hank

In Pass it on, they say Hank Drank again. Check it out.

RE: Re Hank

That indeed is a sad story. After all the work Hank did
for us, he did drink again, and did not recover. I believe
it had to do with a relationship. I think Jimmy remained
sober. I think fifty percent is acceptable. Hank and Jimmy
did not want to see A.A. become a religion. They insisted that the steps be labled as suggestions, and that God be
a higher power of each member's understanding. Without
those changes, I don't believe A.A. could have been
effective for as long as it was. Ignoring those changes
is what is killing us. I wish I could explain in a way
that could be understood. Someday maybe I will be able to
do so. It has to do with the the alcoholic's nature. We
do not respond well when someone tells us what to do. If
someone just tells us what they did and what happened to
them, then we are more likely to follow that path. Tell
an alcoholic what he must do and he rebels. The true
method which works is to let the alcoholic decide all
by himself, in the light of his own circumstances, what
he wants to do. Let him ask the questions if he is
interested in what we offer. Attraction, not promotion.
This may still not make any sense. It is based on my
understanding of Dr. Silkworth's IDEA. ANONYMOUS

Joined: 2012-02-23
Re bob

If you had what I wanted, and I asked you to show me how u got it,how would you show me?

I know what I do. I take the newcomer through the steps in the bb just the way my sponsor did with me in 1992. Just like his did in 1981. And just like his did in 1972.

I have done it this way because that's my experience. The 2-15 newcomers I work with a year do It the same way. And guess what? Almost everyone has stayed sober! The 12 guys that worked with me and that I worked with through the steps in1992 are all sober today! The bb works!

That's my experience.

How would I show you?

I don't think I would be able to "show you". But I can
tell you what happened to me. Drinking alcohol almost
killed me. I reached a point where I feared that I
would die if I did not stop. I thought of drinking
constantly, fighting the desire to drink day after day.
I did not know that most real alcoholics cannot stop
drinking without help. I did not know that an alcoholic
is someone who cannot drink without danger, yet cannot
resist the craving for liquor.
I cried out to God to help me. (in the name of Christ).
There was no human around me. God lifted the obsession to
drink. That was over forty years ago and that craving has
never returned. No one "took me through the steps". I
have made a life study of the steps and practice them
in my daily life. I surrendered to God on Saturday and
entered A.A. the following Monday. Nothing was ever
required of me as an A.A. member. "Don't drink and stick
around with us", were the guidelines the elders offered.
You are certainly doing your part if you help 2-15
alcoholics each year. With approximately 60,000 groups
in the US and Canada less than 15,000 new members were
added in the entire year of 2010. If every sober member
of Alcoholics Anonymous helped just one member every
year, imagine how many we could help. Our membership
of two million would double every year. With 30 million
active alcoholics "on the loose" in the US alone, would
that be too much to expect. Do you understand what I
am trying to say? Alcoholics are approaching us by the
hundreds of thousands every year. We have half a million
members LESS than we had twenty years ago. I am convinced
that we are failing most alcoholics who approach us
today. Do you think we ought to be placing more emphasis
on the steps and the big book? Bill advises us in Lang
not to cram the steps down anyone's throat. Do you think
that was bad advice?
Alcoholics Anonymous membership increased for the
first 57 years continuously. Each one reach one. The
numbers doubled about every ten years, until 1992.
We lost about half a million members in the early 1990's
and have had practically no growth in the past 20 years.
I saw A.A. change at the group level as the decades
passed. I relate the changes directly to our lack of
growth. The changes or distortions have been listed over
and over on I-Say. Bill left us with many warnings about
securing the future of A.A. I see that we have ignored them. I ask you to at least consider what I am trying to
say. I honestly believe that all AA members have the
exact same goal or purpose: to help as many suffering
alcoholics as possible. I was going to write "as humanly
possible", but our power as humans is just too limited.

Joined: 2012-02-23
RE How can I show you

Thanks for your comment. Too bad we are not in the same group. Your sudden release from alcohol and my having to apply the steps as a way of life to stay sober one day at a time would be a great mix at the group level(or on I say).

Thanks again.

great mix at the group level

I believe that is why the teaching of the steps and
the program is the responsibility of the group, not the
individual A.A. member. I explain what I was like and what
happened to me, and how I was helped. You do the same thing
and the sharing continues around the room. The newcomer is
sure to identify with someone's story and think: I was like that too. And she or he is staying sober, maybe I can too.
My sudden release from alcohol, although commonly
heard in A.A. meetings, is not the way the majority of
members "get it". And as Bill wrote somewhere, it doesn't
seem to matter in the long haul. I believe a spiritual
awakening is simply being willing to make progress in
spiritual matters. These matters have to do with honesty,
purity, unselfishness and love. And these are the things
that matter.
I consider my sobriety to be a free gift from God.
Unlike normal gifts, this gift I had to ask for. And in
order to keep this gift I have to give it away. Strange
enough so far? In addition to the requirement that I
give this gift away, He also leaves me the instructions
on how to reach the heart of the suffering alcoholic.
These instructions came in the form of an IDEA left
to us by Dr. William Silkworth. Bill W. followed this
advice from "silky" and Alcoholics Anonymous, the greatest
gift ever to the suffering alcoholic, was born.
Bill writes about this advice many times in our
literature. I find the explanation on page 70 in
Alcoholics Anonymous Comes of age fairly easy to
understand. I am to just share my own story, the bad
and then the good, thank the listener for listening
and end it there leaving a Big Book and a way to reach
us if they desire. Is that so hard to do? ANONYMOUS

Step 1

We learned we had to fully concede to our inner most self that we were alcoholics. This is the first step in recovery.

I have learned from my experience and that of others i have seen over the years that this is the one step that has to be done right. If I don't get this first step, I don't have the willingness to practice the other 11 steps of AA.

All the issues I have read and witnessed in my own AA group and meetings I think come down to this first step. If I really have conceded to my inner most self that i am an alcoholic, I am faced with one dicision. to go on to the bitter end or accept spritual help, the choice is mine. When I choose spiritual help, I agreed to go to any lenght for sobriety. the troubles I have encountered along the way and all the troubles I have seen boil down to unwillingness to go to any length for sobriety.

That's just my opinion.

so many meetings.

I love all this AA banter. What I would like to add is that we have so many AA meetings in my area that I have not even been able to go to all of them in over 16 years. AA is alive in well in NORCAL. peace Lisa

Alive and Well

Most of today's A.A. members believe that Alcoholics
Anonymous is "alive and well". From the inside, it appears
to be. But stand back and take a good look. We had almost
two and a half million members in 1992, after growing
continuously for 57 years. We should have continued
growing. The supply of alcoholics is certainly abundant.
This is twenty years later and today we boast of having
TWO MILLION STRONG. Something is horribly wrong. I
could accept five or six million members, but we have
failed to grow for too many years. The true nature of
Alcoholics Anonymous has been changed at the level
of the A.A. GROUP. We have lost almost all effectiveness
in helping suffering alcoholics. Our mistakes have been
listed over and over on I-SAY.
Our membership numbers are an important indicator of
our overall success. They tell me that our success today
is dismal. I only ask you to consider, and investigate.
Alcoholics are suffering and dying while we delay. We
were given the method (technique) to help them. We
are not following the "few simple rules" mentioned by
Dr. Silkworth in The Doctors Opinion. Those "rules" are
not the twelve steps. ANONYMOUS

One Alcoholic

If AA helps one alcoholic to stay sober,then it has done it's job, and has proven itself effective. It's not the number of people helped,but the quality.

RE; One Alcoholic

If each member of Alcoholics Anonymous helps one alcoholic to stay sober in one year, then A.A. has
done its job. Do you really consider our fellowship
to be successful if we are not growing. The theme ought
to be "each one reach one". Today it seems to be "I've
got mine. Who cares whether A.A. grows? ANONYMOUS

RE Alive an Well

Please share your opinion of what those "rules" are.

opinion of rules

My opinion is that most A.A. members mistakenly think
that the "few simple rules" are the twelve steps. These
are the same members who distorted Dr. Bob's Let's keep
it simple advice. ANONYMOUS

RE opinion of rules

Again, Please state you opinion of what thes "rules" are. And please be as specific as possible. I am a little slow due to alcoholism ;)

"My opinion"

You ask again, so Here Goes! Don't ask me to back any
of this up. It is the way I understand the true A.A. method
of helping suffering alcoholics. First we do not tell
any alcoholic what to do, not even as a suggestion. Let
the Big Book offer the suggestions. Offer the book to
those approaching us for help. Don't even "suggest" that
they read it. It is ok to tell them that I read it. If
they want what I got from it, maybe they will read it.
I think Dr. Silkworth's advice is to "Go Easy on the
God Stuff." I believe one of his rules would be to
never open an A.A. meeting with material such as "How
it Works", or the 24 hour book. These make our fellowship
appear to be a religion. Most alcoholics just do not
respond well to the religious approach. So why turn them
away by telling them "That One is God, may you find Him
now!? Explain the allergy plus obsession theory. The
obsession of the mind which compels the alcoholic to drink,
and the allergy of the body, which will eventually kill him. Let Her/Him decide what they want to do about it. Just tell them what we did and what happened to us.
Dr Silkworth worked with alcoholics, some sources say
forty years and found this "Easy Does It" approach through
working with Bill W. This approach worked well for over
fifty years. We have distorted it, ignored it and do the
contempt prior to investigation. Dogma and distortion due
to foolish pride and the alcoholic EGO. I will read and
consider your opinion. This is mine. ANONYMOUS

Joined: 2012-02-23
Re my opinion

I won't ask you to back it up. In my opinion, I think each individuals opinion or at least the tolerance of each others opinions is one of AAs greatest assets.

If we all always had the same opinions, none of us would question our own beliefs. I find when I consider others conceptions and compare them to my own, I often change mine for the better.

Thanks for reading.


This would indeed have to be an opinion. I do not
think a "list" was ever prepared. The best answer I
can offer is to come to an understanding of Dr. Silkworth's
"cart before the horse" idea. That old horse and buggy stuff
is How It Works. That is my opinion. ANONYMOUS.

Growth of AA

I have read in this forum about how thw effectiveness of AA is on the decline. I am a newcomer to AA but have been to several meetings in the last few years at many different places. Unfortunately i am often ignored. I may get an occasional "Hello" now and then but for the most part I am never approached. I did reach out and ask for help but I am sure there are many who end up not coming back because of this. What ever happend to carrying the message? Maybe if old timers see a new face they can approach the new comer after the meeting and make them feel welcomed. We all remember how terrifying our first meeting was.

RE: Growth of AA

I think most of us forget how terrifying the first meeting can be, and how very difficult it is to just come
in the door. I was moderately drunk at my first meeting, and was with a friend who had been there before. So it
was fairly easy for me. Sitting there, I knew there was
something of great value in the room that night. I could
feel the concern that the members had for me and for each
other. It was something I had searched for, but had little
hope that I would ever find. I still remember the
freedom I felt. No one was there to boss me around. No
one ordered me to do anything, not even to "keep coming
back". Even the leader and speaker did not appear to
be "in charge". This is a delicate time and an alcoholics
life may be on the line. What is the best method of
approaching the newcomer, so we welcome her/him without
pushing them back out into the darkness. Do we smother
him/her or give them no attention at all. The answer
has to be somewhere in the balance. I believe Easy does
It is the best approach. The state meeting schedule
was vital to my entry into A.A., a year and a half
after my first introduction to A.A. by my friend. But
if my first meeting had been preachy, I doubt that I
would have ever returned. I believe I would have died
before I became that desperate. I had tried religion and
the churches several times before. They just did not work for me for very long. I needed the fellowship of women
and men I found here in Alcoholics Anonymous. ANONYMOUS

RE Growth ot AA

I have read several posts stating I would have this or I would have that when I first came to AA.
I can state that I did not know the difference in any meeting or format when I first came to aa. I didn't know traditions or steps. All I knew was the people in the meeting were attractive to me. I thought I was going to die and was at my bottom and willing to do whatever it took to not drink.

In my experience, If the group or meeting is not attractive to newcomers, the meeting or group will eventually die.

After being taught the 12 steps out of the big book, I learned why the meeting I attended was so attractive. as a result of the steps, most aa's at that meeting had a spiritual experience. I could see they were happy, joyous, and free instead of restless, irritable, and discontent like the aa's with untreated alcoholism.

Hand Shake

I wish you could attend my home group. If you walked in the door and I have not met you before, I would knock over 2-4 people to shake your hand and make sure we had a short discussion pertaining to thinking about drinking till you drink and then not being able to stop once you start. Then I would give you the book Alcoholics Anonymous to read to see if you are interested in our program of action. If you were interested you could then call the number I gave you and we could then work the steps together.
If none of the groups in your area work this way, I would suggest you aquire the book Alcoholis Anonymous, follow the simple directions, then start you own group employing the program of action. Many people are book converts, that is the purpose of that book, so you can get sober regardless of anyone!
Thanks for your sharing, it's just what I needed to hear!

RE; Hand Shake

Most members today work this way. That is one reason why oureffectiveness has diminished. I am ever so grateful that
you were not at my first meeting. I doubt that I would
have come to a second. Welcome the newcomer. Show him
the way to the coffee pot and where the rest rooms are.
Introduce yourself by first name only. This way the
newcomer understands our anonymous nature. I believe more
alcoholics get sober by reading the Big Book, than by
the agressive approach you described. Ask the new member
to have a seat and listen. Let her/him decide all by themselves if they want what we have. If they decide as
time passes they want to "work" the steps, be available
to guide them to a step meeting and the 12+12. They do
not need you to take the steps. If you have worked all the steps, it is OK to tell the new member that you have done
so. But it is harmful to that member and to AA as a whole
to even suggest that he/she has to do the same. You may
not understand all this. Many AA members may consider this
as just nonsense. But I believe it is the truth. ANONYMOUS

RE: RE; Hand Shake--Anonymous

I absolutely don't understand where your ideas are coming from! This is not a personal attack it is a legimate statement. This is AA. The program of AA is the 12 steps. To suggest or even think that telling a newomer to work the steps is harmful is against everything in the program. You are absolutely entitled to your opinion but I hope to God you are not going to meetings and telling newcomers or anyone else that they don't have to work the steps! Are you sober and are you an AA member or are you someone just stiring up some trouble? This is AA. In AA we work the steps. This is the road to recovery. If you or anyone else want to come to meetings, (as long as they have a desire to stop drinking), welcome. But please keep your mouth shut if you are contrary to the program or don't believe in the program! Please! You may be killing people!

Ray C.

Personal Attack

My ideas are coming from four decades of living the
A.A. way of life. I only regret that I have waited so long
to point out our mistakes. Bill W wrote about all this
stuff when he was developing Alcoholics Anonymous. Bill
was constantly writing about the blunders our fellowship
could make. In my opinion, we have made practically all
of them. Today we still have hundreds of thousands of
suffering alcoholics and their families approaching A.A. every year.
Almost everyone knows that our success is less than zero.
Eventually they will just give up on us. Let's
turn this ship around while there is still time. Stop
reading How It Works" at meetings. Remove the 24 hr book from A.A. meetings. Stop all forms of chanting. Stop making a spectacle of the newcomer. Stop allowing newcomers to
make spectacles of themselves. Delete the title of
sponsor from A.A. The origional concept of the sponsor has
been lost. Better to just drop it than to try to
reverse it. Begin now to separate addict's meetings
from alcoholics meetings. Stop the sharing by "show of
hands". This customs creates numerous EGO problems.
Stop the "moment of silence", praying for all and
sundry, while holding hands in our ring around the rosy
circle. A.A meetings are not the place to pray. We are not a prayer group. Pray on your own time, as I do often. All these blunders have been written about
numerous times on I-SAY. These may not be all the
mistakes we have made, but it is enough to reduce our
growth from doubling about every ten years to today's
stagnation, over a thirty year period. ANONYMOUS

Re: Personal Attack

You forgot to say don't read the BB and don't work the steps like you have said before in the posts here.
There are 16 prayers that I know of in the BB.
Praying is bad I guess. Bill W and the original 100 sure blew it when they wrote that book didn't they. I wish you were around then to straighten them out!!
Maybe then AA would have a billion members today and we would have solved all the worlds problems!!

Ray C.

Reading and Praying

I don't remember saying "don't read the BB". Maybe I am
growing senile, etc. I don't remember telling anyone "don't
work the steps". Could you point out where I wrote these
things? I read these messages over and over. And I repeat
the same concerns: Reading How It Works aloud at the
beginning of A.A. meetings is the most tragic blunder we
have made in the past three decades. This is followed
closely by the incessant chanting, which is something
many of us agree on.
A.A. meetings are not the place to pray. We are not
a prayer group. Pray on your own time. That is what I
do often.
Maybe in a thousand years we will have a billion A.A.
members. Today I would be satisfied with five or six
million; happy with eight million. ANONYMOUS

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