Magazine Discussion Topic

274 replies [Last post]
Joined: 2012-03-04
re: Problems other than alcohol

Thank you for your reply, I agree with what you say. AA must stick to its singleness of purpose or disintegrate like the Washingtonian movement. But I think it would be better if both AA and NA sorted out the unruly behaviour issues in meetings, rather than alcoholic- narcotics addicts forming yet another type of fellowship.

I thought you’d like to know that if ever you want to use a quote from Language of the Heart in your posts, it’s quick and easy to look up the article in the AA Grapevine archive and then copy and paste. I feel a twinge of guilt, you thanking me for my time and energy.

Addicts in AA are OK with me

You have my sympathy and support. Addiction is addiction is addiction, whether it is to alcohol, coke, or cigarettes.
I am hoping that with enough work, we can find the momentum to effect some carefully thought out change within AA.
Hang in there, follow the steps, read, journal, meditate and pray, and share your thoughts, feelings and concerns with your sponsor. Tap into your spiritual source, and know that you are a cherished child of the infinite universe for all time.

Joined: 2011-08-26
Just a suggestion


A generational issue (Drug addicts and AA)

My sponsor pointed out to me that you won't find anyone under 35 years old in AA arguing that drug addicts should be kept out. That's because they either used drugs themselves or are tolerant toward those who did and are now in recovery. They are baffled by this whole controversy.

It's the older folks who are trying to keep AA pure. All I can say to them is, good luck...

Drug Addicts are allowed in AA

Drug addicts are welcome to attend open meetings of Alcoholics Anonymous. They may attend closed meetings only if they are alcoholic and confine their shares to the subject of alcoholism and recovery. You hear in Treatment Centers that "a drug is a drug is a drug." Not so. A fruit is a fruit is a fruit but an apple is not an orange. I have reached out to suffering drug addicts and directed them to NA. We can't be all things to all people. Closed meetings are for those who are alcoholic.

non alcoholics

If you are a non-alcoholic trying to recover in A A, my experience has shown that eventually you will expend your recovery energy trying to compair your addiction to my alcoholism. There is a vast difference in compairison and identification.If you do not have a problem with alcohol please find a fellowship with which you can identify! If you don't you might die in an attempt to relate. Please read our history, with an open mind, it reveals that we must do one thing and one thing only: Carry our message to the ALCOHOLIC who still suffers. With AA love, Mike

Addicts in AA

I have been in AA for 23 years and I get so tired of this heirarchy of addiction. After a while it just seems as if we addicts are just looking for something to argue about. At the base, the compulsions are the same and our twisted thinking messes up our lives and our emotional health in the same ways. As they say, we need to look for similarities and not differences. Splitting hairs about the bottle or the pipe is just another way for addicts to make ourselves "special and unique." "Oh, you couldn't understand what I went through. You're not an alcoholic!" That is rediculous. Get down to the basics of the program and reach out to others in the spirit of unity and love.

RE: Addicts in A.A.

Are you an alcoholic? What is this hierarchy of
addiction? Are you on the bottle or the pipe? I believe
the very best thing we, as sober members of A.A. can do to help drug addicts is to
keep our fellowships separate. I do not identify with
the things that drug addicts do.
"Get down to the basics of the program and reach
out to others in the spirit of unity and love." I
cannot give away something I do not have. I have
very little to offer the drug addict, unless she/he
has a desire to stop drinking. Alcoholics Anonymous
offers a solution to alcoholism. This solution
rarely fails. ANONYMOUS

you dont identify??

What exactly do you mean by you don't identify with things drug addicts do? Does this mean you weren't a low bottom drunk? Alcoholism didn't cause you to be a liar, cheat &/or thief? You didn't lie or steal in order to drink? What do you mean you don't identify? Does the fact that you were ONLY an alcoholic make you superior to a drug addict then? Because you were able to go to an acceptable liquor store to obtain your drug of choice? Because drinking is legal, being an alcoholic is legal? Each addictive substance one ingests & becomes addicted to, has their own separate means of ingestion, side effects, withdrawal symptoms and long term mental/physical consequences. However as pertaining to the consequences of what addiction does to the human life & relationships the effect is the same across the board. The solution for ALL addiction; whether it be to alcohol, marijuana, cocaine, methamphetamine, opioids, heroin or whatever ~ IS THE SAME: Stop using ALL mind altering substances, find a power greater than oneself, work to discover & correct the character defects that lead to the addiction, repairing any damage these defects caused, learning to live by spiritual principles & helping others (with the preferred method of completing these things being Working the 12 steps with someone who has worked them before you)
Acceptance & tolerance are key requirements to a joyful spirit and those of you who haven't yet acquired these are only selling yourselves short. You've missed the boat I am sorry to say. What a pity!

Re: Addicts in AA

My take on these "arguments" is that often we are trying to win a debate point as opposed to being helpful, period. If I, an alcoholic with a bleed over to benzo's that was troublesome but not truly addicting in how it hits my chemistry, wander into an NA meeting due to: it is within walking distance on a snowy night say, and my ass is on fire, and I cannot make the perfect match connection to the AA meeting miles away, nobody seems too taken aback if A) I am polite, cordially brief and not a hijacker of the room's time and B) not on any mission of purity of purpose but rather a dude in distress that could use fellowship of a kind that is a close second-best (sometimes better) to my regular AA meetings. I am happy to reciprocate a figurative "temporary pass" at least, to any/all that find their way into MY AA meetings. Humility and common-sense need not be barred from the equation. My hunch is that an opiate abuser/addict say, feels just as antsy, desperate, defeated, jangly and worthlessly dangerous as me in the throes of my active alcoholism. If cross-attending keeps our respective first use from occuring on a given night, my hunch is our world is a better place - we can always gradually make one another feel unwelcome over time if that is the goal, to re-establish our "singularity of purpose".

Respectfully, John N.

Thank you for that! I could

Thank you for that! I could not agree more!


Alcoholism IS an addiction to a chemical substance

It is time for AA to recognize its own calcification, its lack of ability to flex and adapt to a changing world. Alcohol is a drug/chemical/substance and it affects the brain in the same way that other addictive substances do. "Drug addicts" have the same issues that we do, need the same self-honesty and spiritual growth that we do, deserve the benefit of a loving and accepting community, just as we all do.
If people are getting carried away during meetings with descriptions of their drunken ways, and then have difficulty relating to the "drug addict's" descriptions of their mishaps while "high", then they are all focused on the wrong things.
Meetings are about RECOVERY, and not about who did the most outrageous things back in the day.
To turn a cold shoulder to the drug addict who is reaching out for help is so abhorrent to me personally, that it causes me to question the whole AA program, from A to Z.
Love, tolerance, acceptance, service, recovery, unity.
Not exclusion, but INCLUSION! Exclusion is simply bigotry by another name, frankly. And it is our youngest and most fragile people who are in need of our experience, strength and hope, and to reject their pleas for help is unconscionable.
Recall the responsibility pledge, and examine your heart. Do you really believe it is right to pull away the hand of AA when someone is reaching out to it?

Joined: 2012-05-18
Alcoholic, never an addict

From my perpective, the trouble is this misunderstanding that a person who is alcoholic is addicted to alcohol. That is not always the case and it isn't/wasn't for me.
Alcohol effects me differently than it does a lot of other people I know. I was a blackout drinker from the beginning. I was more of a binge drinker overall, but was never physically addicted to it.

This whole misunderstanding about the nature of alcoholism is one of the most important things that AA has worked tirelessly to communicate to those who are still suffering. Read the Doctor's Opinion and you will find out that alcoholism is not necessarily about being "addicted" to a particular substance.

RE: Is medication drugs ?

The answer can be true if your a drug addict but the answer is NO if your an Alcoholic.
A fruit is a fruit right, there is a huge difference between an APPLE and an ORANGE just like the huge difference between a wanna be Alcoholic and an alcoholic

Alcoholim is an addiction to a chemical substance

As has been said again and again. Alcoholics Anonymous is for alcohlics. It's so simple It is a principle that has been with us since the beginning. I don't recall anything in the Big Book where alcoholics "reach out" to drug addicts. Should we welcome compulsive gamblers, sex addicts, "shopaholics" into the meetings of AA? We cannot, nor should we try, to be all things to all people. AA has been watered down so much, it has ceased to grow. We're at a standstill because we've been so "inclusive" and arrogant in thinking we can help any suffering person. To recover, non-alcoholics should be attending other 12-step groups. This is a selfish program

Joined: 2012-01-18
Re: Alcoholism is, etc.,etc.,etc

I hope the editors and readers will forgive me for such long post.
This was shared by a member of an on line group in Sept. 'o3,
I post it here with thanks to Dan K.
"Consider for a moment your first meeting?
If yours was like mine, you probably stumbled into a small AA hall somewhere.... full of fear, angry at almost everything, and yet with that vague hope that maybe there was an answer inside. You were half-eager to be there, and half-eager to bolt for the bar at the first opportunity. Maybe you were there against your will.... 'cause somebody sent you.
What would your response have been had somebody walked up to you and said, "Welcome to Anything Anonymous! I'm Gloria and as you probably noticed I'm way overweight... that's why I come. What are you, anyway? You look a little thin and emaciated. Are you a druggie? We got lots of those. Oh, so you're an alcoholic, huh? Well, don't worry about that.... we've a bunch of those here, too.
"Now, don't worry about what you hear.... you'll hear all sorts of strange things here. It's up to you to sort it out, so every time you hear the word drugs, think alcohol, and every time you hear the word over-eating, think alcohol. You'll get the hang of it after awhile. Obviously, when one of us tells the newcomer not to eat so much, that won't apply to you.... you need to eat. And if one of our gamblers asks you for a stake on a hot tip, I would recommend you not give him or her any money! Avoid the crying ones who will lean on your shoulder and tell you about their alcoholic parents.... they have there own sub-group in here, too."
I don't know what you would have done. I'll tell you what I would have done..... I'd have turned and run for the door just as fast as my feet would carry me. And if AA was like that.... I'd still be running.... if I was still alive, that is.
This matter of singleness of purpose, primary purpose and the only requirement is not, in my mind, a case to be discussed on the moral merits.... those vague and lofty pronouncements we all feel that our principles are so wonderful and work so well, we ought to be willing to share them with all God's children. They can't be discussed on that level because it's true.... our principles ARE wonderful, and they work well for a whole host of other problems that don't have anything to do with alcohol.
Nor should we discuss this from the viewpoint of an addict is an addict is an addict. Maybe that's true, and maybe it isn't. It hasn't been proven scientifically, that I know for a fact. In each case, alcoholic, addict, overeater or gambler... I find the scientific evidence clear... different areas of the brain are responding to stimuli in different ways, through the manufacture of different body chemicals. To me, similarities don't mean so much as that one difference.... that one unknown... and that is simply this: I don't know FOR SURE they are the same.... and since I don't know FOR SURE.... then I need to be keeping my big mouth shut, because my pronouncements might well kill one of them if my advice were followed.
What we need to do is clearly understand the tiger in the cage. Alcoholics. Alcoholism.
My experience was, is and likely will be this: This disease that I have is so devastating in its impact, so terrifying in its many forms, and so relentless in its cunning, baffling and powerful nature.... that it takes all my energy, almost, to stay in recovery from this one thing. I, as an alcoholic, am high maintenance. I need a lot of directed effort, and I need a lot of directed attention. I need constant focus. I need a structure in which to function devoted exclusively to what I suffer from.... alcoholism.
My denial system is a fact. It is huge. So is yours, probably, if you are an alcoholic. My delusional and fact-twisting nature is well known in the alcoholic literature. My alibi-system can do double back flips, blindfolded, and land on its feet every single time. If I let up, or change my focus, even for a very short time.... I start to deteriorate. So do we all, if common experience can be believed.
So, you see, it isn't that the ideas of sharing aren't good ones. And it isn't that many different kinds of conditions can profit from what we have. It isn't a moral question, and it isn't an issue of what would be right and what might be wrong.
It is an issue of life or death. This tiger in this cage will kill me or you if it gets loose. Let us concentrate on this one thing. That's more than enough for all of us. You see, for all the high-faluting morality and high-minded talk..... simply put.... alcoholics die until and unless there's a specific place FOR ALCOHOLICS.
One last thought: The mission statement and the traditions have never once told me what you have to do.... all they've ever done is tell me what I need to be doing. Period.
God Bless, Ya'll, and have a great week

chemical substance

A.A. HAS been flexible and it has almost destroyed us.
By trying to be all things to all sufferers we have not only
hurt ourselves, but have failed those we have tried to help.
Sure. we could just lump all those who suffer from addiction
into one pile. But then all we have is a pile of crap. And, in my opinion, that is what we have done slowly over the
past three decades. Drug addicts are dying. Alcoholics are
suffering and dying. Drug addicts don't suffer as much. They
just die in their sleep.
You are right. We are failing a generation of young
people. We fail them by letting them think that we of A.A.
can help them recover from drug addiction. We can indeed help them, by helping them to help themselves. As sober
members of Alcoholics Anonymous, we have a method which worked for us. We have a fellowship of men and women. We can help drug addicts to form the same type of fellowship for themselves.
An alcoholic can help an alcoholic. A drug addict
can help a drug addict. A food addict can help a food
addict. I can identify with the alcoholic and the overeater, but I have never used drugs. I have had a
crash course in drug addiction in the past few years,
and now understand why the fellowships must be separated
and kept separate, if any of them are going to survive.
If you are truely dually addicted, "doubly blessed".
form a drug addicts meeting and focus on drug use and
what goes along with drug addiction. Pattern it after
the A.A. method of the 1970's, not today's A.A. Today's
A.A. is just a twelve step program, only one of many
such programs, and has very limited success. We need
wholsale recovery methods today. Our country has an
epidemic of alcoholism and drug addiction. Bill
W. and Dr. Silkworth left us a solution many years
ago. That solution came in the form of a simple IDEA.

This is alcoholics anonymous

I have one question, how do you react to alcohol? if you find you cannot quit entirely or if when drinking you have little control over the amount you take, you are probably an alcoholic.
If you cannot relate to that simple question, In my opinion you are in the wrong fellowship. In AA we relate to each other at first by our mental obsession with alcohol and our physical allergy. we also have strange mental blank spots when we think drinking will somehow be different this time.
I am more than willing to help anyone. I am also trying not to hurt anyone any more as well.
It has been my experience that allowing someone who is not an alcoholic belong to an aa group is hurting them, the group, and any newcomer that only has an alcohol problem. When it comes time to do aa 12 step work, the nonalcoholic cannot relate their experience to the newcomer. At each aa meeting the nonalcoholic cannot give a straight aa talk pertaining to alcoholism. When someone comes to an aa meeting to find out more about their alcohol problem they will here all about problems other than alcohol from the nonalcoholic.
In AA our ego has been reduced to the level where we feel as a society that we cannot be everything to everyone. So AA as I understand it came to the conclusion long ago to do one thing well. That is to carry the message of aa to the still suffering alcoholic.
I am an expert in one area alone, MY OWN PERSONAL EXPERIENCE WITH ALCOHOL. When I share my experience with alcohol with another alcoholic, they may come to believe this program may work for them. That might give them just enough willingness to try the aa program of action. Until such an undersanding is reached, usually little can be done for them.

problems other than alcoholism

Please take the time to read the pamphlet "Problems Other Than Alcohlis". It is as timely today as it was when Bill wrote it in 1958. AA. Love Mike

RE: Drug Addicts are Allowed in AA

I can't speak for everyone but I believe the issue isn't whether or not they, (drug addicts), are allowed, (as long as they have a desire to quit drinking), it is how much time during an AA meeting should be allowed to drug talk. If a person has a desire to quit drinking they are a member if they say so, regardless of any other addictions they have. But can a drug addict who never drank or who does not want to give up drinking be an AA member. The answer of course is no. The 3rd tradition states the only requirment for AA membership is a desire to stop drinking. Some folks put the emphasis on "ONLY", I would put the emphasis on "REQUIRMENT". That means you have to have it!! If you never drank or do not want to quit, (like someone I once heard in a meeting say, " alcohol is not my problem, cocaine is my problem, I like drinking, in fact I can't wait until New Years Eve so I can get wasted"), you cannot fulfill the requirement,(again MUST HAVE), so you cannot be an AA member. I believe if you are telling your story and you mention a brief thing about drugs that is fine. It is YOUR STORY. People talk about AA dying, what about NA. everyone bitches NA isn't available or isn't as good as AA. Who's fault is that?? Take your 3, 5, 10, 15, 25 good years of sobriety and go start a good NA meeting!

Ray C.

Summer ? Irate.

Ten years ago I could have written your message word for
word, and with the same passion. But I see too many drug
addicts today who are just not "making it" in the AA
fellowship. I believe it is the lack of identification.
I have attended probably 25 N/A meetings over the
past ten years. I have not been impressed. There are few
members with any length of clean time. I have seen drug
dealers at the meetings, although I have never seen a
transaction. I doubted if they were there for the right
purpose. ( yes I am judgemental). I just believe that
both fellowships can be much more effective working
side by side. There are certainly enough of each to
fill the rooms. I am personally trying to get a local
group together to form an Addicts Anonymous closed
meeting. Maybe they can best help themselves by
helping each other. Singleness of purpose. ANONYMOUS

RE:pause before you send

in my experience of using the computer in the amends process, i have had nothing but positive experiences! i am up front as to the reason i am contacting them via computer.i got this from reading the book, "a new pair of glasses" i am an alcoholic, but i have found a way to live 1 day @ a time without having to drink. that condition is that i make amends.(these were made to my past girlfriends) When we were together i treated you in a manner in which you did not deserve to be treated. I WAS WRONG ! what can i do to make this right? i pray before i press the send button, that this is my HP's will for me. i go into this amends process without having any expectations. i thank my HP, my sponsor & his sponsor & this line of wise men for their guidance in me making my amends via computer. also, i thank ALL of you for my sobriety. 10-Mar-12 will be 3 yrs of being clean & sober...i cant do it, but WE can. Ha-ho

Old Girlfriends

I am convinced that almost nothing good is accomplished by
contacting old girlfriends whether by phone, email or snail
mail. If you clearly owe her money, just send her a check
with a note of explanation. The chances of doing more harm
than good is too great. These names belong on our eight
step list. If the opportunity is to come, it will come.
Turn that outcome to your higher power. The possibility
of causing further harm is just not worth the risk.
Suck it up! Share it in your fifth step and let it go.
I try not to give AA advice so directly, but I am
concerned that others may make the same serious mistake.
I am also a wise man, with probably more sober experience than your sponsor's sponsor. ANONYMOUS

Joined: 2012-02-23
I-Pad App

Are there any plans to create an I-Pad application?

Joined: 2012-01-10
iPad app

They are focused on the android app right now and should be out soon, the next to be released will be the iPad app
This is from the march trustees meeting under publishing, ask your Gsr or dcm.

Joined: 2011-04-20
March 2012 Magazine Discussion Topic

This month's discussion topic is based upon the story, "Pause Before You Send." In this story, a woman discusses how she realized that her computer was not the best place to do a Ninth Step. Here is the discussion topic text:

God gave me the moment to pause before I clicked 'Friend.' And I did not listen," says the author of "Pause Before You Send." And even though she discussed the upcoming Ninth Step amend to an old friend with her sponsor, the author still had problems making it using her computer. "I should have paused. I was left with a hole in the pit of my stomach," she writes. She learned from her experience and would like to help others. "Try to get an address and a phone number," she suggests.

Have you ever made or set up up a Ninth Step amend on your computer? How did it go? Was it helpful? Would you do it again?

All Things to All People?

I was very happy to see the article written by Mimi M. of Ridgecrest, CA on the subject of Tradition Three...singleness of purpose. I seems that we have lost what the traditions mean in many and closed. The idea that a chemical is a chemical and an addiction is an addiction is simply crazy. I don't recall every going to a restaurant and ordering a Line of Coke before dinner. Nor can I go in to a store and buy heroin.

A Drug is a Drug?

A chemical is a chemical is of course a true statement. A
duck is a duck is equally true. I am beginning to understand
what my Texas friend means when he says that welcoming drug addicts into AA has harmed Alcoholics Anonymous. Until a few years ago, I had never seen a drug addict up close. I have come to see why AA and NA must be kept separate. There are certainly enough of each to fill the rooms.
Alcoholics Anonymous has compromised its principles,
in an attempt to be all things to all people. I believe
that most AA members understand that drug addicts cannot
become members of AA, unless they have a desire to stop
drinking. But in open meetings they have become members.
I find that they are often the first to have a hand up
to talk. They defend their right to be there. They are
often the loudest chanters, hooters and hollerers.
What are the answers? I have often considered forming
a "private meeting" by invitation only, but that would
be a last resort.
Our attempt to be all things to all people, allowing
drug addicts to become AA members, has harmed the fellowship
which could better help them. NA and AA can each be mighty
effective if they work parallel, side by side. Everyone
wins. Joined together the effectiveness of both is diminished. Severely diminished. I just do not identify
with the drug addict who gathers his friends together in
a motel room and spends thousands of dollars of someone
else's money. Or the prolonged sickness of withdrawal.
Heroin addiction is a monster in itself. Bill W. wrote
that we alcoholics are pikers, when compared to the heroin
addict. We seldom help them. I believe in Massachusetts,
over three thousand addicts died in the five year period
2002-2007. The belief that we of AA can help them is
just causing more harm. Let them help each other in NA,
where they can really identify. Stop watering down both
fellowships. This posting is what I would call pure
opinion, just my observation. ANONYMOUS

Joined: 2012-02-19
What about people who are alcoholics and did drugs?

Which program do you suggest I attend since I am an alcoholic who did drugs, gambled and overate? How do I honestly share my experience without mentioning these things?

RE: What about alcoholics who did drugs

I am an alcohilic because when I honestly want to I cant quit entirely(mental obsession)and while drinking I have little control over the amount I take(physical allergy). Left to my own thinking at some point I will think it's ok to drink just before I drink or will drink for whatever reason.

I know I can't drink as much as a thimble of alcohol without setting the cycle in motion. so obviously I can't safely use other substances.

Now that know I am an alcoholic, I have been beaten down enough by alcohol to accept the program of AA. To do 12 step work I carry the message of how I recovered to other alcoholics. That helps me with my daily reprieve from alcohhol.
I'm not sure how the other programs work, but obviously I wouldn't relate to an over eater, so why would I attend meetings of that society to help my Alcoholism.

In the AA pamphlet "problems other than alcohol" is states "Sobriety-freedom from alcohol-through the teaching and practice of teh 12 steps is the sole purpose of an AA group.

So I would suggest you find out what your primary problems are and attend that fellowship to the fullest, meaning begin to practice it's 12 steps.

Good Luck :)

Joined: 2012-01-18
What about people who are alcoholics and did drugs?

"Which program do you suggest I attend since I am an alcoholic who did drugs, gambled and overate? How do I honestly share my experience without mentioning these things?"

Why not do what many others do? Attend all four programs. Share your experience with alcohol at AA meetings and your other experiences at the other meetings?
My experience has shown me that those who insist on sharing their drug use at AA do so for several reasons;
Sharing about drug use in an AA meeting is a subtle way to deny one's alcoholism. And by identifying as an alcoholic one can deny one's addiction.
To show others that one is different or special.
The person sharing is an addict who drank, but not really an alcoholic according to the descriptions given in "The Doctor's Opinion" and Chapter Three.
And in case you're interested, I sponsor a gent who belongs to AA, NA, OA and GA. I found out about his other problems over coffee, not during a meeting.
I suggest reading the anecdote which begins in the last paragraph on page 141 of the "12 & 12." The final sentence is "Never did he trouble anyone with his other difficulty."

singleness of purpose

When you to a AA meeting You are a Alcoholic period.

what has aa given me that helps me be confident?

My inability to look you in the eye when I got to aa was very apparent, but not to me. I didn"t believe it when a prospective employer mentioned that fault in a followup share. When I got sober, and an aa with several years sober talked to me, he looked me in the eye. I found myself looking back. And that made a difference in my confidence. I have also learned to move through relationships with coworkers especially, by praying a lot. When I had conflicts with people before I got sober, I could only see their mistakes...and that made me feel bad. Somehow responsible. But now I have the tools to pray for the other person, and look at my part. That way I have been blessed with having stuck with the same job for 25 years, and the same relationship with a woman for over 22 years. Now I am seeing how the 6th and 7th steps are so important. I have been sober for 27 years, but am just now seeing myself with enough confidence to stay strong and carry on. I love aa.

March 2011 Issue Page 1

I have heard that AA will only destroy itself with in. Saving money is a good thing but not our Singleness of purpose. Getting folks to change there Subscription from paper to online is a mistake. I for one take my read copy's to the County Jail, City Jail, Hospital, Clinic, Substance Abuse Clinic and County Health Dept.Hard to do with one copy a month so I encourage others to pass the Grapevine on. When the online was first introduced it was in addition too, and now it's being put out there as a cost saving device. what happened to saving lives? Oh, that's right saving lives is less important than saving money...Way to come up with a great idea Grapevine committee.
Dave H

Joined: 2011-11-12

Interesting. I prefer online. It is more expensive than print. Call AA and they will revert online to print for you.
I prefer online because of the archives, more topics covered, searching for a particular issue, etc. Also, if I want to distribute an article to somebody it is easy to print it or e-mail it.

Joined: 2011-05-22

I have changed my paper one for the one on computor and i miss my paper one for the same reason not the same. Don't have compuor where ever i go. Mark B



Dealing with loss

My husband whom I met in AA, and we were married for 17 years, committed suicide in January 2007. He went through what I call a mid-life crisis. I did get very busy in AA to when I did not know what end was up and what end was down. Bottom line - I did not get drunk and I stayed sane.
Just when I thought I was getting on with my life, I was riding the motorcycle that my late husband left behind this June 2011 and a person hit me. I lost my left leg, went through 7 surgeries, and spent 42 days in the hospital. I am now learning how to walk with the prosthesis.
I have seen so many gifts from this tragedy. My son 38 years old now calls me his hero. My mother, who did not talk with me for the last 4.5 years, took care of me when I got out of the hospital and we have a great time together. My son and mother who have not talked for about 18 years - both enjoy each others company and my mom was invited to my granddaughters 2nd birthday party. I received over 38 cards, so many plants, candy, and stuffed animals. I truly have so many friends in the 12 step programs. And I ask myself - "Why Me"...WHY NOT ME! I get to show how we walk through life and don't drink (or use) no matter what...
My life is great. I am learning how to walk all over again, and I am learning how to ask for help. And this is at 22 years of sobriety.

Reply to medications and AA

I had no idea that there was a pamphlet about this issue. I appreciate your post more than you know. I have had the worst time trying to get the "loving, unjudgemental, helpful support" that was the original purpose of AA.

One woman wanted to know my Dr's name 'cause she accused me of not being honest with him about alcohol use. I am in pain treatment, it is from a work related injury, this busybody, know it all has no idea how quickly the DOL would cut off my benefits and stereotype me as abusing drugs, if they got wind of this. My Dr. knows that I don't abuse the drugs because they test me every month to see what I'm taking. What happened to anonymity? Do the busybodies not see the harm they do by driving people away that need AA for more than a "Social Club".

The only sponser I ever tried to have was more screwed up than I am. She said I had to call her everyday and all she talked about was how good she was at getting men to give her money. There are some sick people in AA no doubt, not just sick as in alcoholism, but sick as in manipulative and depraved.

I used to smoke cigarettes. I struggled with cravings for several years, got addicted to nicorette gum, I know it was God that set me free from that, I prayed and begged to be set free from nicotine, finally it came to pass 21 years ago, way to go, me! I have been through the same struggle with pot, I've been pot-free as of 7 or 8 years, yea, again! I didn't go to meetings I just quit buying it. Fear of being arrested or being around possibly dangerous people. I no longer have any desire for it. That is a true miracle because I never knew how to quit. I need that same miracle again. I want to be totally free of any and all compulsive behavior.

I know that miracles happen, I just need another one.

medications and AA

I am really glad to have picked up the OCT 2011 issue of the grapevine...I have been on depression/anxiety meds for about 3 yrs, and probably should have been for the last 20 but couldn't get myself to do it (I've found that many people view you as a weak if you need meds, I guess I have an ego problem, ha ha) It made a huge difference in my life...I drank on and off since I was 16 or so, usually sporadically and to excess. When I started the meds, I quit the booze until I found what a great effect it had when I mixed them. I ended up in treatment this past summer and stayed sober for almost 90 days (apparently I like to mess things up right before a big date). After 2 slips, I talked to my doctor and he said without a doubt that I needed to get on an anti-craving medication. Since I've spent some time with "old timers", I automatically feel like I'm cheating the program a little, because it works pretty good for me - my cravings for coffee, pop, etc are knocked way down as well and I feel "normal" without feeling high. Doesn't the Big Book say "whatever it takes, and going to any lengths?" I've only been on it for 3 weeks but I can really tell the difference. I've read through all the posts that are on here about meds and AA and it's sad to hear some of the stories, and good to hear some of the others. If you have an illness, it needs to be treated...I think the worst thing you can do is drive someone away from AA with a black and white attitude towards meds. Of course I'm very happy that my cravings are pretty much gone, but also worried about what it will be like when I go off the anti-craving med in 6 to 12 months. I pray that my brain chemicals will be in balance more, and that I will stay sober with the help of an understanding sponsor and AA. Quite honestly, I think I have had anxiety/dep since I was a kid way before I took the first drink....or have I always had an "alcholic/addictive" mind? Either way, I'm going to do what it takes to treat the conditions I have, and be grateful for each day and do what I need to do to stay sober.

RE: medications and AA

We are not doctors and if one is they surly would not practice in a meeting Lol - There is a good pamphlet on medications and want to thank you for being here, Be true to thy own self and every thing will be alright if you can run from chronic conditioned people that thinks they know how to save your life as they sit in the same room, lol

meds, AA

Thanks so much for your thoughtful comments. It reminds me of our general purpose, "to stay sober and to help others achieve sobriety."

Don'task don't tell Sept. 2011

As I read this article I could not help see the the similarities between the auther and myself. My parents died before I was able to get sober, but when they were alive, drinking problems were never talked about. Even today my siblings do not talk about my drinking and it is sometimes very uncomfortable for me to be with them knowing that I am on a path that they do not agree with. The point is that this article has let me know that I am not the only one with this problem. Thank you for giving me the insperation to continue to live my life as I'm sure God wants me to live. Mike R. Innisfil ON

Joined: 2011-09-15
Medications and AA

I was driven away from AA (or so I thought) by my first sponsor and first home group. I was taking a desperately needed antidepressant, without which I had already been hospitalized. My sponsor "fired" me and my home group said I couldn't do service work.

Despite this abrupt dismissal, I searched for AA's ideas about prescribed medications. To my relief, I learned AA had no policy against these medications; in fact, they allowed their use if used as prescribed. Only my doctor and counselor can advise me on medication use -- AA groups who prohibit participation in AA when the only requirement is a "desire to stop drinking" can do harm and -- sometimes -- force depressed individuals into suicide. This is not what AA is about ... AA should help and accept those who try to maintain sobriety.

I found most other groups I visited had no prohibition against antidepressants. In fact, when directly and honestly addressed, other members say they use them but are reluctant to admit it in AA rooms.

I have been sober and actively participated in AA meetings, speaking in hospital settings, and taking my medication as prescribed for more than 2 years now. I think my greatest service to AA is to declare my thanks for the AA stance on these medications. I do that, making no secret of my antidepressant use. I do a lot of service work and sponsor people, some of whom need medications to stay sober.

What could have happened to me when I was fired by my first home group and sponsor could have had a much different ending. If I had stopped my medication (as demanded by that sponsor), I don't know if I could have continued in AA, or if I would be alive today, for that matter.

We in AA should apsire to help other alcoholics. We are not there to dabble in matters that don't concern us. We shouldn't negatively affect others' sobriety with our laymen's "wisdom" on medications. People with treated depression can be productive members of AA; others who try to meddle in our lives do so at their own peril. If a life is lost because of meddling, I hope there is room enough in your amends -- and in God's heaven -- for you. Rejoice in having a sober AA brother or sister, regardless of the circumstances that brought them their sobriety.


Thank you for your impacting comment.

I will never forget the woman with 30+ years of sobriety who would always tell newcomers at the table - who spoke of their hospitalizations and or doctor prescribed medications - "to stop taking all your medications at once. All you need is AA." You see, her non-AA husband was a physician, so apparently she knew better. Not. After a second or third time of her bs, I spoke to her after the meeting and told her she had no right to give medical advice to a newcomer or anyone for that matter. She was shocked to hear this.

If someone who is not YOUR M.D. tries to give you medical advice before, during or after your AA meeting, or any other twelve step group for that matter, DO NOT LISTEN to them.

Joined: 2011-11-13
Medications and AA from a new comer.

Driven away by AA and my sponsor. How disalugening for a new comer!!! "I am responsible, When anyone anywhere reaches out for help I want the hand of AA to be there and for that I am responsible." An elderly member that I "had" admired and whom had provided me with much support and guidence was recently re-arrested for violation of his parole. He was one of the first to make realize that Iam powerless over alcohol. He will likely be sent back to Kingston for what will likely be the rest of his life. I was sadened and alarmed by the gravity of his charges and crimes. I was angry that I had called him a friend. Finally I heard that he had stopped taking his prescription drugs that were designed to subdue his deviant side. A dramatic example however the medications are to quell his deviant emotions. The Alcohol enhansed these desires. AA protected him and others. As long as he stayed away from alcohol, he was able to controll the dark side and continued to take his medication. He is going back to jail, and back to AA. Let me quote " how it works" There are those who suffer from grave emotional disorders" What about the manic depressive who cannot survive without medications. Then again there is the poor soul who suffers from fibermilasia (sic) or cancer. They have no option except to take narcotic pain killers and in turn suffer
NARCOTIC addiction. Where is the compasion. Well thank you very much for giving me the opportunity to go back and review the big book as I understand the big book and understanding why we have the twelve traditions.

Medications and AA

Two months before I got sober I was hospitalized for two weeks, diagnosed with Bi-Polar disorder/manic depression. I convinced my doctors that I was just an ACOA blowing off steam and got off of medication. I went on a wild bender and soon wound up in AA.

About 18 months into sobriety I was hospitalized again, this time for six weeks. Thank God for the support of my AA friends through that ordeal. My then sponsor accused me of 'chewing my booze'. I put her name on the "do not want to see list' and she wasn't allowed in to see me. I later fired her and got another sponsor.

I was discharged and have been on Lithium ever since (22 years). For me, managing my mental illness is crucial to my sobriety and staying sober is crucial to managing my manic depression. I have had only one hospitalization since and that was after breast cancer surgery. I was hospitalized for one week and had a second surgery, to clear the margins, during that stay.

My doctors, especially my psychiatrist, are wholly supportive of my sobriety and we work together to keep me healthy.

I used to carry around the pamphlet, 'AA Members Medication and other Drugs'. I'd read the section about AA having no opinion, that it's between the member and their doctors, at meetings, when so called old-timers would bash people for taking prescribed medications, painkillers, psych drugs etc. I know it was helpful to the confused member on medication. They came up to me after the meeting and thanked me. I have sponsored a few of them.

I have been sober for over 24 years and have been on medication for 22 of those years. I know that without my medication, my sobriety would be nonexistent today. And, staying sober allows me to manage my mental illness.

I am so grateful for the tools of the program, especially the Grapevine. Several years ago there was in issue called The Forgotten Chapter with stories about members with mental illness. I still have that issue and read it when I need to be reminded that I am not unique in AA.

Keep up the good work.


The sponsorship concept today, addded to the incessant chanting, is one of the main reasons AA has become viewed by many as a cult. The general public sees us as a cult because that is what we have become. There are groups
where members are told to get a sponsor before you leave the
meeting today. Some groups actually assign sponsors to newcomers. Imagine an alcoholic telling another alcoholic what to do!. And we have AA members who take a few classes
and become AA guru's both in and outside the meetings. One of the very first impressions I had of AA was the sense of freedom I felt. There were no demands, no requirements at
all. I was not even ordered to "keep coming back". I was
allowed to listen and and become a sober member of AA
without any fanfare. In Alcoholics Anonymous we all come
together as absolute equals, newcomers, and oldtimers.
We need the newcomer as much as he needs us. There is no system of hierarchy or patriarchy. But anyone who attends
the AA meeting of today knows that this is only a theory.
Today's AA is a system of preachers, teachers, advisors,
councelers and guides. Many are under the umbrella of
sponsorship. Let's lost that title. ANONYMOUS

re: sponsorship; is aa a cult?

Your comment really spoke to me, thank you. I used to cringe when I'd read that some AA's or the public thought AA to be a cult or cult like.

In my community there such meetings where a perceived AA guru or two literally tell their sponsees to sponsor certain people or tell others who they don't sponsor to sponsor clients of the treatment facility where they work. And away they do. As a result, newcomers of these meetings tend to perceive these AA's as gods of AA and more. AA's even refer these two to be replacements for Dr. Bob and Bill W. It's ridiculous. Of course, this is my opinion. It's also ridiculous when any one of these gods of AA tell their sponsees that having only 5, 8, 10, etc., sponsees of their own is not enough.

Then there are the AA's who preach away at tables who love hearing themselves go on and on. They preach the program to others so they don't have to do their own program. It's pathetic. And the chanting after certain parts of "How it Works" and "The Promises" are read, STOP IT! The one that takes it all, is the asinine AA who inserts or changes words and phrases within these readings with their own bs.

Solution: don't attend those types of meetings.

Solution: don't attend those types of meetings?

That may be one solution, but what about the new member who may be at her/his very first meeting. They may think this is the way all AA meetings are held.(and today most of them ARE). Most AA members think this has always been the way meetings have always been held. But they have NOT! The
real solution is to stand up and speak out. Insist on group
conscience meetings where many may share your concern. No,
it will not be easy. "Kill the messenger" may be the initial
response. We have many strong personalities in AA today,
sometimes it seems that all common sense members have
simply walked away. And most have done just that, hopefully
to other AA meetings, if they can find one. ANONYMOUS

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