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"we have much to learn from each other"

Talk about passive aggressive.

You suggest "If you cannot lay aside your prejudice against spiritual terms such as these, perhaps you can take your resentment and a coffee pot and start an Atheists Alcoholics Anonymous meeting."

And then you rescind "Personally, I hope you don’t. I fully believe that our strength comes from others in the group. We have much to learn from each other."

Why suggest s/he start an Atheists AA mtg and then tell s/he not to?

So much to read between your lines.

August Grapevine submitted by an anonymous atheist

What I don't get is that if you are an atheist and therefore, obviously think that you don't need a higher power to stay sober then why in the heck are you even interested in coming to AA? What do you need in AA to stay sober? Fellowship? You can find that is many other social and civic groups. Sharing with other drunks? There are plenty of dry drunks out there who choose to not use AA as a tool to stay sober. The coffee? Pleeeeease! ;)

To me, this is like going to an Italian restaurant and throwing a fit/making a scene because you want them to serve you Mexican cuisine. That would be insane! If you want Mexican food don't walk into an Italian restaurant, Silly!

RE: August Grapevine submitted by an anonymous atheist

This article makes it a little more clear just why our fellowship is dying. Most AA members have never read our AA
history. Obviously this writer has never even read our AA
preamble. The sad part is that so many of today's AA's
agree with this distorted view of Alcoholics Anonymous.
Alcoholics do not approach AA looking for a higher power.
I think I can correctly say that if I were looking for God, I would look to the churches. The last place I would look, if I were looking for a higher power, would be Alcoholics Anonymous. I still find the AA coffee the
best in the world, a quality never before tasted. But I am
from the old days and have not shifted to the fancy expensive cup of coffee. A buck or two for a great cup
of coffee and the world's greatest fellowship. What a
wonderful gift! ANONYMOUS

An Atheist Asks

I apologize for any mistakes as I am writing this from what
I remember reading. Bill W. split off from the Oxford Groups
in 1937-1938 (New York AA). Dr. Bob and the Akron, Ohio groups did not separate from O.G. until around 1940. Dr.
Bob was told by Henrietta Siberling "you'll be sorry".(for
listening to Bill and leaving O.G.). Heni, you will recall,
introduced Bill and Dr. Bob in May of 1935, and was an
important part of the formation of Alcoholics Anonymous.
Bill W. and Dr. Bob wanted to help alcoholics exclusively. O.G. wanted to save the world. Although Bill
and Bob had gotten sober in the Oxford Groups, they
discovered that most of the suffering alcoholics they
worked with did not respond to the intense religious
approach. They found that most of them wanted desperately
to get well, but could not swallow large doses of what
we call the God Stuff. But Bill and Dr Bob, using that
"IDEA" developed by Dr. Silkworth worked when other
methods failed. Simply, feed the newcomer with teaspoons
not buckets.
That is why reading How It Works, and the 24 hour
book at meetings aloud as part of the format, has been
so devestating to our fellowship. That was the approach
initially used by Bill W. and the Oxford Groups. It
did not work back then and is clearly (or maybe not so
clearly) not working for us today. Some alcoholics do
respond to that approach, as did Bill and Dr. Bob. But
there is a technique which worked for me and I believe
will still work today for the wholesale recovery of
alcoholics worldwide. We must study it; understand it;
and follow it. In fact we do not have to study it or
understand it. We only have to follow the technique.
Do not tell any alcoholic at an AA meeting what to do.
I tell them EXACTLY how I got sober, expressing the
spiritual feature freely. I do not demand, imply, or
even suggest that anyone else has to do what I did.
Of course the Big Book was written in a religious
tone. That was all they had. It was written while, what
was to become AA, was very much still connected to the
O.G. movement. Bill, who was sober less than five years,
wrote that the book was meant to be suggestive only.
I think Bill said that more would be revealed. I estimate
that by ignoring the "more will be revealed", we have
failed six million alcoholics, plus their friends and
families, in the last two decades. I am using conservative
estimates, using our membership numbers from 1990.
For the first half century, we doubled in membership
about every ten years. If we had continued what I would
consider an acceptable rate of growth, we would have
eight million members in AA today. We have two million.
What really happened in the 1980's to cause our stagnation
in the 1990's? Most members in AA today consider Alcoholics
Anonymous is alive and well. It appears to be. Actually
we are on "life support", spinning our wheels, churning.
I began with an apology and will end the same way.
I really try to be brief, because I find long writings
difficult to follow, maybe a little attention deficit
disorder. But I was awake at 2:00 AM and up at 3:00,
unable to sleep. I have had this obsession for about
four years now, since the death of my friend and neighbor,
a 24 year old AA member. It was further fueled by the
near death of my son from addiction. He was turned off
by the cult religious nature of today's AA. I found
that the reasons were the same concerns that I have
found. The blunders we have made in AA in the past three
decades can and must be reversed. Anonymous

RE: An Atheist Asks

Great questions and thanks for being here. I see you did a lot of research there is a few missing pieces you can find.
When Bob went to meet Bill he was going to give him 15 minutes due to Bob's guilt thinking Bill is going to tell him what he should be doing, this didn't happen to Dr Bobs surprise - For the first time two alcoholics met and both were in a dilemma and needed someone to talk to - Not tell not show but to talk to. Today it's a tell and show game called sponsors who help more people out tan in the door. Conditions always limit Gods free gifts.

Dr. Bobs Guilt???

I really believe that Dr Bobs visit to Bill was much like the Dr's visit of the old days when doctors made house calls. Bob was very hung over and was only willing to give
this rumhound from New York 15 minutes of his time. I recently listened to an audio of one of Dr. Bob's last taiks
and he mentioned his fondness for Henrietta Siberling as
part of the reason he agreed to go to see Bill. Dr Bob was
not aware that he needed someone to talk to. Bill W had realized for the first that he REALLY needed another alcoholic in order to stay sober himself. Henrietta was the one who had the idea that they may be of help to each other.
I certainly don't mean to be critical. Lately very few say
"thanks for being here". It is usually "why are you being so negative." I truly believe that we ought to have eight
million members in AA today. When I think of the six million
we have failed, plus their families and friends I grieve.
No, Bill did not tell Dr. Bob what he had to do. Bill only
shared his own story and ended it there. Our merciful higher power, greater power, GOD did the rest. Or maybe
just a miracle of science??? ANONYMOUS

AA should make atheists happy

Any one who has read the big book and the 12 and 12 cannot escape the fact that Bill Wilson clearly had a spiritual experience to which he clearly accounted his release from the bondage of his obsession and compulsion with alcohol.
Why should he or we who also had no other option than trying a spiritual surrender that ended up actually working not pass EXACTLY THAT on?. We have been freed of the desire to drink because of EXACTLY that type of surrender when ALL ELSE had failed,. We would be lying to say something else saved our butts, and remiss to not tell the whole truth just because someone doesn’t agree with OUR EXPERIENCE, doesn’t LIKE it or doesn’t “APPROVE” of the solution that worked for us. Hey. No problem. Do it your way. But don’t tell me there is something wrong with my story or experience and to not pass it on.
I question whether any one who can stop permanently from drinking (all the way to the day that one dies, by the way, not for one or four or twenty-five years). If they are able to not pick up that first drink then they just maybe are one of those problem drinkers or heavy drinkers mentioned in the big book that are NOT alcoholics and give true alcoholics a bad name--because they can stop without a spiritual intervention, and are able to control their consumption of alcohol by their own will power and can maintain permanent control.
I am sorry for any one who cannot stand the "cult" atmosphere and rejects AA and goes on with their addiction and dies. Maybe a spiritual solution for that person would have brought a different outcome.
I feel that anyone who doesn’t like AA can go get sober your own way and start your own groups and live happily ever after. I will not pick any fight with you. Yay! Rock on! You are sober. Great! What works for you and your friends--Go for it! But courtesy and respect are due those of us who are maintaining sobriety in our separate, autonomous groups as we continue to pursue a joyous happy free life with other sober drunks who sit around weekly and read the books and say prayers in our meetings and go home happy and sober,

RE: AA should make atheists happy

In reference to your article posted Tue, 2011-09-13 19:41, I
really don't understand how the title relates to the article. I would ask you why you are angry, but I have felt the same anger when I just don't understand something.
Your first paragraph is absolutely correct, and is
documented in the Big Book and in the 12&12. Bill's
spiritual experience is described in even more detail on
page 2 in the A.A. way of Life a reader by Bill, which was
changed to "As Bill Sees It". His God given (I believe)
release from the obsession for alcohol was also written on
page 63 in AACA, AA Comes of Age.
I think it is significant that Bill's description of
his spiritual awakening in the Big Book is less intense
than that which Bill wrote later on. I believe that all through history some men and women have stopped drinking and have remained sober "to the end of their lives" by
a religious conversion. Maybe they were true alcoholics,
maybe just problem drinkers or heavy drinkers.
Do you think that Bill remembered his spiritual
experience differently in later years? I believe Bill
"watered down" his discription of his spiritual awakening
in the Big Book. He obviously did not want to scare any
alcoholic away. In many cases the Big Book would be the
alcoholics first introduction to Alcoholics Anonymous.
Bill W's grandfather experienced a spiritual conversion
and remained sober for eight years before his death.
Ebby "got religion" but I believe he was drinking within
a few months. I understand he did have long periods of
sobriety, and was dry his last two years.
Why would anyone not like AA? If alcoholics are turned
off by the chanting, let's stop chanting. Chanting is a cult
ritual. If alcoholics are turned away by the praying at
meetings, let's stop praying at meetings. Attend a prayer
group separate from AA. Don't turn AA into a prayer group.
Bill W and Dr Silkworth developed a technique which was
proven effective for alcoholics with a desire to get well.
Share with suffering alcoholics EXACTLY how you got well.
Don't tell them what to do. We just tell them what we did
and what happened to us. We don't even imply that they have
to do the same. Let the alcoholic make his own decision,
as Bill W describes on page 8 of AACA.
Study the history where Bill writes about his six
months of "violent exertion", in his unsuccessful attempt
to help other alcoholics. What was the advice given to
Bill by Dr Silkworth. Bill writes several times that
without this advice AA could never have been born. That
approach worked with Dr Bob, who incidentally never had
the white light experience, but stayed sober for the rest
of his life. I believe Dr. Bob was a true alcoholic.
Alcoholics Anonymous is failing. We have been
spinning our wheels, churning, for two decades. I did not
know this until after 2005. No one told me. We must
reverse the blunders we have made. The evidence is in
our membership numbers, down over half a million in the
past two decades and still stagnant. ANONYMOUS

Why did AA stop growing?

I have heard many reasons offered for AA's lack of growth
over the past three decades. The basic reason is that we
have lost the technique which was suggested to Bill W.
by Dr. Silkworth, and Bill's own personal experience. Bill
met with Dr. Bob as an equal. Bill deeply knew that he
needed another alcoholic to talk to, in order to
preserve his own sobriety. There was no sense of hierarchy.
They came together as absolute equals. That solution
hardly resembles the sponsor, teacher, preacher AA
member of today. We must return to that approach. We
owe this to the future generations of alcoholics. Are
we willing to give up our personal desires to preach,
pray at meetings, and chant. These rituals make us look
like some kind of strange religious cult. ANONYMOUS

Joined: 2011-06-06
The reasons for our failure

When I first started posting on this new forum, I stated that I would write in one sentence the reason Alcoholics
Anonymous has lost its effectiveness. Here it is: Over
the past three decades Alcoholics Anonymous has morphed
into a strange religious cult. Praying at meetings makes
us look like a religion. If it looks like a duck, it must
be a duck. Chanting makes us look like a cult. The
hierarchy in today's AA makes us a cult, in my opinion.
I have covered most of my concerns in the past couple
of months, since I found the new I SAY FORUM. I wrote
hundreds of messages for the old forum site. I have
repeated myself many times, and have heard many ENOUGH
ALREADYS's. And I will end this today with the same message. Alcoholics Anonymous is pushing hundreds of
thousands of alcoholics out of our rooms every year.
Alcoholics who could recover and be restored. We fail
them by these rituals: The reading of HIW at meetings is our worst
most tragic blunder. Bill W. and Dr Silkworth explain
this many times in our literature. Simply, it is the
cart before the horse idea. The introduction of chanting
in AA gatherings around 1980, was a tragic mistake.
What may have begun with some kind of purpose, today
makes AA look like some kind of freakish joke. Sure,
new members jump right into the nonsense. The much
needed serious member is driven away by this ritual.
Dr. Bob was quoted as saying "Don't applaud me! Don't
applaud any alcoholic! Yet today, in some parts of
the country, everyone who shares is applauded. This
in not EGO deflation. EGO deflation at depth is the
solution to addiction as explained by Dr Silkworth.
Today at many meetings we make a spectacle of new
members or members returning after absence or relapse.
This is harmful to the AA member, personally, and to
AA as a whole. We ought not make a spectacle of the
newcomer, nor should we allow them to make spectacles
of themselves. The "Hold Hands and Pray" closing also
adds to confirming that we have become a religion.
This religious ritual was accepted as tradition in
one of the stories in the fourth edition of the
Big Book. A serious blunder in my opinion. There were
several other serious mistakes made in the past three
decades. They have been covered in the I SAY FORUMS
and in our AA Grapevine. I have had this obsession for
almost four years now and will again try to "cease and
desist". My computer is old and faltering. I fall into
that category myself. The "Kill the Messenger" response
to my many concerns, has also taken its toll. I suspect
that I should not write further, as it may possibly
prevent this article from being posted. I personally
don't believe that Alcoholics Anonymous will ever
recover its effectiveness. We will stumble along for
several more decades spinning our wheels, pushing
suffering alcoholics away from our rooms by the way
our meetings are conducted. Sad, appalling, tragic!

The Reasons for our failure

Don't give up!

I realized several years ago, that human nature has a tendency to follow the leader-by the way sheep, also fall into this category. About the same time as this realization, I stopped holding hands and chanting. My moment of silence at the beginning of most meetings is to quickly remind myself that this meeting is not about me-it's about us, so hopefully if I choose to share, it will be helpful not only to myself but to others.
I believe in the Preamble. I think it pretty much says it all.
As for the drug issue, I'm a recovering alcoholic and drug addict, I'm 55 years old and have remained sober for the past 28 years by practicing the 12 steps of AA.
I don't own AA, don't have any right to tell others how to recover and hope that I never feel the need.
One thing that I do know, is that I am who I am, it works if I work it, and it doesn't if I don't. But please don't hold hands and quote me on that:)


Holding hand seems to promote some emotion bond among us.But the Lord's Prayer is surely Christian,I prefer the Serenity Prayer & it is often used,like last night at my Big Book Study group.

RE: Holding Hands SEEMS...

I believe this is one of the times that Bill W. is talking
about when he says that "Sometimes the temporary seeming
good can be the deadly enemy of the permanent best". Holding
hands with friends is indeed warming. What about the newcomer, nervous, sweating, shaking who is forced into
holding hands with strangers. And I suspect that many non-
believers find holding hands with us Christians repulsive.
Why take the chance of excluding any alcoholic, regardless
of her/his beliefs. Can we of AA sacrifice our need for
the warm fuzzy closing in order to be all inclusive.
Everybody wins and nobody loses. Leave the holding hands
for the romantics. ANONYMOUS

RE: Praying

Our first tradition of unity has nothing to do with our standing around in our "ring around the rosy" circle praying
and chanting. Unity is the sacrifice of our own clamors and
desires for the benefit of those who may be new. I personally do not like to hold hands with strangers. I have
met others who feel the same way. For years I conformed
because I did not have the courage to resist. I no longer
"hold hands and pray" although this custom was accepted
by our conference when they accepted the fourth edition of the big book.
There are probably historians out there who have
information as to when the meetings were first closed with
the Lords prayer. I believe that initally when they
met in homes, they simply ended the meeting after the
last member shared their story. And had more coffee and
I prefer the Lords Prayer for closing the meeting.
The choice should be made by the group's fully informed
group conscience. To announce that we close the meeting
with a certain prayer, and anyone who wishes can join in
is welcome to do so, is acceptable. To coerce any member
to join in holding hands actually harms our public
relations. SAY WHAT?
The "hold hands and pray" closing began in the
northeast in the early 1980's, along with a decade of
other evolutionary changes at the group level. How
well have these changes served us? Our membership
numbers reveal the sad truth. ANONYMOUS If anyone needs
an emotional bond, how about a handshake?

How It Works

Bill W. was our cofounder who led Alcoholics Anonymous through its first three and a half decades. I believe he
made some errors in the last years of his life. Instead of
actually stepping down after the formation of the
conference service structure, Bill remained in charge
too long and remained the head of AA. His reputation
as a womanizer harmed our reputation. I understand that
the membership just refused to let him step down. But I
have studied enough of AA's history, to believe today
that Bill had God given insight. He saw that AA was being
led into being a religion. Bill warned us of the danger of
this in AACA, bottom of page 232. He repeated this
warning in Language of the Heart in an article to the
AA Grapevine in April 1963. We failed to heed these
warnings. Even the courts today have labled AA as
being a religion. AA history is a vital asset, yet
most AAs have never read the information left for us.

Dinner back in the day

I remember stumbling home with a corned beef sandwich and 2 tall beers after a hard night. I guess I figured I wasn't drunk enough. Then, 4 tylenols and 2 tall glasses of water. Maybe a scotch for dessert if I didn't pass out. I also thought this was a perfectly normal way to live.

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