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You still ain't said where the cart b4 the horse idea can be found. I think openmindedness is important, to put blame on one thing for AA fails is silly. Bill W did say that about AA destroy from within and I think he based that on the Washingtonians.
People can get sober on a spiritual awakening only but very few is sober on medical cure only!
Open up that good mind you have!


cart b4 the horse idea

One explanation appears in The Language of the Heart book
pages 197,198 and 199. This article was written by Bill W.
for the July 1953 issue of the AAGRAPEVINE. Bill also writes about Dr. Silkworth's idea on page 90 in Alcoholics
Anonymous Comes of Age, page 70. Bill writes on page 70: THIS WAS IT. THIS WAS HOW TO CARRY THE MESSAGE. Bill
called it the final missing link.
The "cart before the horse IDEA" advice from Dr.
Silkworth is simply: Go Easy on the God Stuff. This was
printed on The cover of an AAGRAPEVINE about 10 years ago, in the form of a question: SHOULD WE GO EASY ON THE GOD STUFF? Trial and error tells us yes.
Personally, I understand the IDEA repeatedly, written
by Bill W., is his warning to never start an AA meeting
with the reading of material such as How It Works or
the 24 hr book. We do not want it to appear that AA is
some kind of religion. We do not want to push new suffering
alcoholics from our rooms by pushing religion on them.
We don't want to have a reputation as twelve step pushers.
This may prevent potential members from even approaching
us in the first place.
To put the blame on this one thing may be silly. But
I believe that this was our worst blunder. We have made
several other mistakes in the past three decades. These
are posted numerous times on I-SAY. In today's AA we are
only saving enough drunks to replace those who die or leave.
Something is horribly wrong. Sincere thanks! ANONYMOUS

RE: How It Works History

So HIW has been read at the opening of meetins since 1940 but it took until the 1990's for AA to start losing members!
I don't think anything read from the BB will hurt anyone who is in an AA meeting and has the desire to stop drinking.
Refresh my memory on the Cart Befor the Horse. Does this refer to giving the drunks the physical aspect of alcoholism befor the spiritual? Maybe we should read something from the AMA befor the meetings!
If newcomers would read the BB they would learn about the physical aspects of alcoholism. Doesn't anyone read the book anymore? All these other books are fine as a supplement to a person's program but the BB was written to carry the message!

RE; RE: How it Works History

The custom of using a reading from chapter five reached
the East coast in the form of reading the first two and a
half pages in today's How it Works. From its beginning in
1940 to nationwide in 1980. I only hope and pray that it
doesn't take four decades to send it back where it came
from. This reading from the podium is killing us. ANONYMOUS

AA History

Please do not underestimate the value of Alcoholics Anonymous Comes of Age, and Language of the Heart and the others: Pass it On, Dr bob and the Good Oldtimers. These
books are as important to our fellowship's survival as the
Big Book and 12+12 are to our personal recovery.
You will have to read and study Dr. Silkworth's cart before the horse IDEA in these books.
In Lang on page 199 Bill wrote in a letter to the Grapevine July 1953: In the middle of the page Bill writes
the words of Dr silkworth: Quote The point is that alcoholics won't buy all this moral exhortation until THEY CONVINCE THEMSELVES THEY MUST. (CAPITALS ARE MINE). END QUOTE. I believe this is important: We can seldom convince
the newcomer, nor ought we try. They have to convince themselves. Attraction, not promotion. Buy and study those
books. But I have no way of making you buy
those books, any more than I can make a newcomer read the
Big Book. Let liquor be the enforcer. We need no others. I
think it says that great love and great suffering are
to be our only discipliarians in 12+12. ANONYMOUS

Traditions or traditions (customs)

I checked out the Traditions forum , and found little discussion about our principals contained in our Traditions.Most of the conversations were about local customs in nearby meetings. How about our principal of Anonymity in the digital Age or how we can cooperate in our communities so that people understand what A.A. is and what we are not.
As members of our groups we need to take responsibility to insure that newcomers have the same chance we had when we wondered in from the cold.

What AA is and what it is not

Good topic.

I like the 12x12 description of how if the steps are practiced as a way of life they will expel the compulsion to drink and make you happily and usefully whole. Thats pretty much all I ever wanted!

Also I am not very popular in my AA community right now. At a closed meeting last friday someone introduced themselves with there name only. I explained it was a closed meeting and it was limited to alcoholics or people with a desire to stop drinking. I don't enjoy making that statement, but felt someone should since the meeting chair didn't. The attendee said he was sober for seven months.

Yesterday after a meeting a lady called me some names and said anyone can go to meetings(refering to what i said last week). after she finished yelling i said again only alcoholics or people with a desire to stop drinking are allowed at closed meetings.

In the town i recently moved to there are meetings usually twice a day and all but two are open so everyone in the recovery community can attend. I guess we need to start reading the blue card at each meeting so everyone knows alcoholics anonymous if for alcoholics. Hopefully we can slowly get back to our primary purpose.


Principles before Personalities.

If you want everyone in AA to like you, try being a
chameleon or what Bill W. called a politico. I read an
article in the grapevine a few years ago where the
writer of the article wrote that most AA members adored
Bill W., but there are some who despised him.
I have found that AA members can react with hostility,
when their basic beliefs are questioned. I believe wars
have been fought.
I have lost favor with many in my effort to inform our
membership that we are losing or have lost most of our
effectiveness in helping suffering alcoholics. I did not know this until a decade after it began to happen. I believe our leaders and trusted servants just did not
want to give us that bad news. Politicos just give
people what they want, or tell them what they want to hear.
Asking attendees if they are alcoholic can be a very
delicate subject. Suppose a new member is an alcoholic
and is just not certain enough to call himself/herself an alcoholic?
Do we demand that the new member conform? When a member
states "I am Joe and I am an addict, do we ask her/him to
leave the room, even if there is no addict's meeting
nearby? I personally know several addicts who attend AA
meetings stating they are alcoholics. They share about
drinking, not drugging.
It just seems that on the District, Area and GSO level
they find all kinds of other topics to fill in the time
allotted. No meaningful discussion is allowed as to the
real reasons for our lack of growth. Our traditions are
ignored. I don't believe any effort is being made to
reach our goal of self support. Our two traditions on
anonymity are being watered down. Two thirds of our fourth
tradition are ignored. Many believe it reads: "An AA group
can do anything it pleases".
So welcome to the club. I am called many names, bleeding
deacon is one of the kinder ones. Caterwalling or Caterwauler and relentlessly negative are others. I have kind of
gotten used to it. I like to think I may be gaining a
glimpse of humility. ANONYMOUS

Is the outside sponsorship system killing A.A ?

Is the outside sponsorship system killing A.A through there personalities - Personality is simply another persons reality not always Gods.

Does the outside system undermined the 3 pertinent ideas of A.A. itself? LOUD YES

Does the outside system undermined the promises of A.A. to intuitively handle situations? LOUD YES

Is the outside system miss used inside A.A - Take a closer look victims.

The Rightious Recovered Alcoholic

Does it get any uglier? Do you think it's the part of yourself that you just can't forgive? Shouldn't we lend extra support to anyone that shares the same affliction?

So many questions...but, there's one thing I know -
When you join hands and repeat "Keep coming back",
there are NO time or condition limits.

RE:The Rightious Recovered Alcoholic

The only righteous alcoholic around is called a sponsor, the rest humbly understand only for the grace of God there go I. There is no humility in an outside sponsorship system here in A.A and that's the CHEIF reason many leave. Personality = another persons reality = a sponsor!!!!

As a sponsor for many years I

As a sponsor for many years I REMAIN A HUMBLE SERVANT ! Forgive a sponsor, I am a messenger of the solution!..these are merely suggestions!...
I have a testimony as to the value of AA in my life. I can share my story to help others.
We ask God for that mentor,sponsor, to come into our lives. Step 3 says God`s will NOT mine. I recommend a sponsor that is grounded and spiritual and is at peace with life. These are the qualities that can most benefit the struggling alcoholic. That is my experience.

We are humble before God and of service to others. Bill W clearly stated that this humbling, through service, was key to his spiritual walk.

Principles NOT personalities.


The Rightious??

So many questions... There's one thing I know- I don't understand your questions.
There were no time or condition limits on "Hold hands
and chanting", until "It works if you work it, was added.
Find God and find Him NOW! certainly has a time limit.
Chanting has harmed the public image of AA. Prayer is
a wonderful practice, but the AA group is not a prayer group
Pray in church and on your own time. ANONYMOUS

AA Minority Report (GB) 2012

It might be worthwhile getting a discussion going on the subject matter contained in this report. (It has not been accepted in its current form for this year but the Conference Question committee concerned have asked for it to be resubmitted in an amended form for 2013 (primarily because it contains references to outside organisations)). It deals with quite a few of the issues raised in other parts of the I-Say forum. Unfortunately I can't include the link to the document directly (I-Say policy) but if you are interested you can find it easily enough by using the search terms: AA Minority Report 2012 (in any combination and in any search engine).

AA Minority Report 2012

It is indeed good to know that there are many others who share my concern about the present state of Alcoholics
Anonymous and fear for our future. I have read much of Bill
W's writings and concern for AA's future is often expressed.
To sum it up, AA has morphed from a fellowship of men and
women, to a TWELVE STEP PROGRAM, only one of many. The changes at the group level have been subtle. I was aware
of the changes, which today I call distortions, but was not
aware of the grave consequences. The price has been human
suffering, unnecessary suffering. We are failing the very
population we are supposed to help, alcoholics and their
friends and families.
Despite our failings, much of the general public still
recommends AA for their alcoholic patients. Almost everyone
in America has heard of AA. The alternate programs are not
that well known. Although many have heard of our dismal
success record, they are aware that AA does work for a few.
Alcoholics Anonymous in its pure form, offers hope for
wholesale recovery of alcoholic sufferers. Even as a strange religious cult it still works occasionally. Some
alcoholics respond to that approach, get sober and stay
sober. I believe that "trying to help other alcoholics"
keeps many alcoholics sober, even if they are spectacularly
unsuccessful, as Bill W. was in his first six months. Bill
called his effort "violent exertion".
Once again I will list the blunders we have made in
AA at the group level. Our worst mistake was the start of
reading "How it Works" aloud at meetings to all and sundry.
This may be a little more difficult to understand than our
second worst blunder, the introduction of chanting. This is
the "Hi Joe! chant, and for lack of a better word, this is just plain stupid. Chanting of any kind is a cult ritual,
and has no place in AA.
The acceptance of the 24hr book at the group level has
been a mistake. This book has been rejected twice by our
general service conference as being inappropriate for AA.
Yet in many parts of the country this book has made it to
the AA podium. The theme is still ingrained in regions even
where the book itself has been "banned". Many of our leaders
have no idea why the 24hr book was rejected by Bill W. and his friends in the early 1950's.
The simple custom of sharing by "show of hands" has been
another mistake. Until the early 1980's, we simply went "around the room". I have heard this called "round
robin". This is asking for all kind of EGO problems. Making
a spectacle of newcomers or allowing new members to make a spectacle of themselves is also an EGO issue. For anyone
who doesn't know, EGO deflation is key in recovery from
addiction. Allow each member to enter and exist in AA on
an absolutely equal basis. No one is "more important" than
anyone else. THAT WAS IT! Dr Bob wrote about his first
connection with Bill W.
Another grave mistake was the introduction of praying
at AA meetings. In the 1970s we opened the meetings with
the preamble. We cited the serenity prayer for "those who
wished to join. We closed the meetings, standing by our
chairs, without holding hands forcing everyone to join in.
No one was made a spectacle of if they did not join citing
the Lords prayer. Most of us joined in but it was not
mandatory, as many meetings are today.
Today's concept of sponsorship is another reason that
AA is considered a cult. Taking control and running another's life, basically without taking any personal
responsibility for the person, is one indication that AA
has become a cult. Combined with the chanting, which is
shouting, yelling, hooting and hollering in many parts of the country, sponsorship and chanting, makes us a cult in
the eyes of the public. It is imperative that the general
public look on AA favorably.(public relations).
The "Hold Hands and Pray" closing has already been
mentioned, as an indication that we have become "too religious" in AA meetings today. This was accepted by the general service conference, upon approval of the fourth edition of the Big Book. I wonder how many who voted for it had actually read it.
Most of this material has been posted over and over on
the I-SAY FORUM. I am ever so grateful for this method of
reaching others who are concerned for AA's future. Much of
our loss of effectiveness is due to our lack of true
understanding the "cart before the horse" advice given to
Bill W. By Dr. Silkworth in the spring of 1935, just prior
to Bill's trip to Akron. If we can somehow understand that
vital ingredient we may be able to "turn this ship around"
using the words of a trusted servant, my area delegate.
These concerns may eventually be discussed at the
conference level, but the ultimate responsibility for AA's
future lies with the AA group and the individual AA member.
We must somehow develop the courage to stand up and speak
out. Trial and error has ended. AA is diminishing. I
just yesterday picked up a 2002 issue of box 459, listing
our membership at over 2,200,000. We have fewer members than
that today, a decade later. ANONYMOUS

RE: AA Minority Report 2012

I love A.A. and yes we had lost quite a lot. but why?
A.A. is simple clear and precise in the 3 pertinent Ideas
not pert-in -near ideas - Why cannot people understand B and C? as they are conned through fear into running to an outside sponsor instead of A.A.'s ideas? why do people fall for fear and are so easily diverted by people, places and things instead of Easy does it.

AA meetings rehash sad stories & provide no outlet for sobreity

why isn't there a meeting where we can go to socialize, play cards, etc without drinking instead of just listening to a sad story we all have!!!!! What the hell?????Here just trying to help someone not kill themselves & yes it is all the same!!!!!

What the hell?????

I felt ill at ease and out of place, as far back as my
memory will reach. Initially I was very fearful, but eventually it turned into anger. I found out early in life that "people" would hurt me, so I avoided them as much as possible. Living life alone is not really living.
Liquor was the answer for me. I was no longer fearful
and I found others like myself, so I was no longer alone.
After attending her first AA meeting at Bill W.s home
these were the words spoken by Marty M. to her drinking
friend, "Grenny, we are not alone any more"
Yes, it is much the same. I need a place to mingle with
friends without alcohol being involved. Many AA members
play cards, go bowling and socialize outside of AA
meetings. I doubt that these activities can take the
place of AA meetings. AA is like the iceing on the
cake. I have gone to thousands of AA meetings, but the
meeting last night was the best ever. How often I
sincerely feel that way.
Have fun, and help others to a life of joy. "The
joy of living".... ANONYMOUS

Understanding AA history, history of traditions, vital

I have read through many of the posts on various topics, some of which I agree with, some of which I don't, many of which I have no idea what the writer is talking about. One keeps writing about an "outside sponsorship system." I honestly have no idea what he/she is talking about. What does come through loud and clear is that most of the posters have never read the 12 & 12, in particular the 12 traditions and their accompanying text, as many of the comments about what AA is and isn't are ones that were pretty much specifically rejected after they had been tried and failed in AA's early years, as recounted in the 12 & 12. Just as my personal history is a vital part of the story of how I came to be sober and how I stay sober, so too does AA's colorful history provide insight into how AA came to be, how it has developed, and how it stays vital for so many of us. And when I say "AA's history," I am not speaking to those made up bits of it, including the aa membership numbers, which are about as accurate now as they were when Bill W. wrote in 1939 that "we number hundreds," which at that time was a gross exaggeration.

Re:Understanding AA is no history

Understand the ideas of A.A. and you will understand what how the outside system learn to operate inside A.A. instead of bring them in from the outside? This may be to simple of fact for a sponsor in themself.

Joined: 2011-07-18
Re: Understanding AA history, history of traditions, vital

I think you’ll find all the information you need to explain what people are talking about when they say “outside sponsorship” if you follow the suggestion in the "Minority report(GB)2012" post above. The minority report is titled “A call for moral inventory and leadership in AA”. There’s some interesting bits of AA history in it too. As mentioned in the above post, it can be searched on any search engine by using the search terms: “AA minority report 2012”

Alcoholics Anonymous Comes of Age.

I am sure you can tell me where Bill W. wrote in 1939 that
"we number hundreds" which you consider to be a gross exaggeration. On page 180 AACA Bill writes : By early 1940
we could estimate that about 800 recoveries had been made.
He writes: This number was a big jump from the figure of 100 at the time the book was published in April of the year before. end writes. Do you believe the estimates on page 310 AACA contain any truth? Do you really think that the aa membership numbers are "made up bits" of AA"s history?
Bill wrote AACA in the mid 1950's, I personally have read and believe most of it.
Do you think that 2,000,000 AA members are about all we can expect? "TWO MILLION STRONG" was part of a Grapevine article. These membership numbers mean something! I ask you to write to GSO for the list of our head count from 1935
to the present. It is clear that we are "churning", helping very few new alcoholics to recover. Self centered we are
only helping ourselves, only enough to replace those members
who die or drop out.
Personally I think it is just easier to deny the evidence
contained in the numbers, than to face the real truth. The
truth is that we are failing hundreds of thousands of suffering men and women, plus their friends and families
every year by the way our AA meetings are conducted. The blunders I keep repeating here. I finally understand what
the poster of "outside sponsorship" is trying to tell us.
It took a traditions workshop for me to understand it. We
don't need a sponsor to practice the steps. They are God's
free gift to us. We only share exactly what happened to us.
No more, unless a question is asked. Even then we only share our own experience. Trust God, as each individual
understands, to do his miracle. Yes, make sure the new
member has a Big Book. Let her/him read it. Bill W.
explains the program of recovery. Give the new member a
copy of 12&12. Yes, I have read every word in the 12&12
"hundreds" times, at a regular weekly step
meeting and a regular weekly traditions meeting. "Hundreds"
is not an exaggeration. ANONYMOUS

re: aa comes of age, etc

I misquoted Bill - he did not say "hundreds" in 1939, rather he said "more than a hundred." (see Preface to 1st edition) One AA history buff puts the number at around 75, and of those probably 15 failed to achieve long-term sobriety, while the success of many others is unknown. So Bill's exaggeration may have been slight rather than gross. What is interesting to note is that some of those pioneers also chose the harder, more painful route (the old "in-out") before achieving any length of sobriety.

But I do take issue with this statement by you and others for which no empirical evidence exists, that "The truth is that we are failing hundreds of thousands of suffering men and women… every year by the way our AA meetings are conducted." Sounds like the rant of a bleeding deacon. Not only are the AA membership numbers folks cite very rough estimates (though probably as accurate as are possible given the nature of our organization as reflected in 3rd & 12th traditions), but your conclusion that lack of growth is due to how meetings are conducted is without any basis. Nearly every day I hear someone's story about being introduced to AA a decade or two earlier before finally making their way back and getting serious. Rarely have I heard anyone complain that "you people were too religious" or "I was turned off by the chanting and holding hands," rather the comment is invariably "I wasn't ready" or "I wasn't as bad as I thought you people were – yet." That they find their way back tells me we were not failing them then, nor are we now. But as this isn't a "one size fits all" program, and there is not "one right way" to sobriety, that some people don't want what we have is inevitable.

Joined: 2011-08-26
100 vs 75 in the Big Book

A good source for the facts and figures can be found in Nell Wings (Bills secretary) book. She states that when Bill had 100 she asked him and he said that by the time it was printed, there would be 100.

I am not sure of the number, but it was around 75.

The way I see it, Bill was a dreamer, and that was good for A A, and Doctor Bob was the realist holding the fellowship together. When the book was written, using the 75 figure, Akron had a little more than 50 members and New York had a little less than 25. Also, most of the stories came out of Akron and a couple from Cleveland. Only a few came from New York.

Re: aa comes of age, etc

Thanks for the correction. I hope I-SAY will continue this
dialog. The information from GSO about AA membership is
available upon request. It is a one page list of membership
numbers from 1935 to the present. "It is titled Worldwide
A.A. Individual and Group Membership". It shows continuous
growth until 1992, reaching almost two and a half million.
I an sure you know that today we stand at two million members worldwide.
When I first saw these numbers, my belief that AA is
"alive and well" disappeared. I remembered all of the
changes we had made at the group level over the past four
decades. The list of changes is about ten. In my opinion
they were significant changes (distortions). Those members,
the few who do believe the numbers, can probably come up
with ten reasons for our lack of growth. These reasons for our lack of growth may make sense to them.
Please, Write to GSO for the number and group list. I don't believe you can look at that sheet without viewing
with alarm. Yes I have been called a bleeding deacon several times, but, believe me I have been called much worse.
I have no "axe to grind". Alcoholics Anonymous saved my
life and my brother's life decades ago. But AA at the group
level barely resembles the AA of the 1970's decade. I have
listed the changes over and over on I-SAY. But very few AA
members read these messages, and even less understand them.
I do believe that Alcoholics Anonymous is a "one size
fits all" fellowship. Bill W. wrote in Three Talks to
Medical Societies "The only thing we ask of the alcoholic
approaching us is a desire on his part to get well.
Our AA membership today ought to be eight million.
We have failed a generation of alcoholic sufferers plus
their friends and families. Do we have the wherewithal
to reverse the blunders we have made at the group level?
Or will we fail another generation of alcoholics?

Joined: 2011-08-26
Not to worry

The not to worry, was in regards to members reading your postings. Some where the Web monitor reports 600 - 900 visitors per month. It was not clear as to whether it only accounts for those logged in, and if they come back to the forum a number of times.

Then they might use the I P Address to calculate.



membership decline

Just curious as to the changes you have seen at the group level in your area, I have more questions than answers, most of our mistakes stem from our trying to be all things to all people giving the impression to the world at large that we can help the non-alcoholic, opening up our closed discussion meetings so all can come and now participate.
On average we sell nearly one million Big Books per year and have for many years, yet your membership stays flat. Who the heck is buying our book?! A fellow Bleeding Deacon

RE; membership decline

We gladly share the twelve steps to the world at large
so that all who want can use them. I believe the true AA
method is also freely given to all. The method or technique
is different from other recovery "programs". You might say
that our recover process is opposite other attempts at
recovery from addiction. Other programs tell their members
what to do. We only tell (share) what we did and what has
happened to us. No one can be left out or pushed away. I
believe that most addictions can be arrested by using the
true AA process. I like to say, "it is not really that
complicated", but it really is complicated and very
difficult to understand. ANONYMOUS

RE: membership decline

My first reaction to this post is that we cannot possibly
be selling a million books annually. But I think we gave
away the 30 millionth big book at the 75th AA aniversary.
Who IS buying the Big Book? I suppose most AA members bought
a copy when the fourth edition was printed. I just don't
believe that the casual reader who is not an alcoholic would
have much interest in our Big Book. Those million books are
bought by alcoholics or given to alcoholics every year. The
result of a million books in 2010 was 16,499 new AA members.

re: membership decline - Big Books sales

Observing our local groups in action, several of the larger ones are pretty consistent in giving a Big Book to every newcomer. I suspect that there is a landfill somewhere with millions of the Big Book, along with copies of "The Bhagavad Gita As It Is" distributed at airports a few decades ago. Not that either is unworthy of study, but neither is going to resonate with the reader unless they are ready for the message. After my second meeting, someone chased me down as I was leaving and thrust a Big Book in my hand, saying I had to read the first 164 pages, had to attend 90 meetings in 90 days. I stuck around in spite of this person. I did read the Big Book, but can't say it resonated with me initially. It was the stories of those in the rooms that made sense, along with the suggestion not to drink today and to keep coming back. I wonder if the "requirements" thrown at newcomers turns them off? Some of that "you have to do this" might be attributable to treatment centers, which I gather pretty much control the lives of their patients for the length of their stay. But I think the pioneers of AA were similarly demanding, so perhaps it is only natural for me as a human being to assume that how I successfully accomplished something is the only way to do it. Fortunately, the longer I am around, the more I realize that while there is only one way to stay sober, by not drinking, there are many ways within and without AA to accomplish that - though AA is the only one that has worked for me.

re: membership decline - Big Books sales

Quote "I wonder if the "requirements" thrown at newcomers turns them off?"

The Outside sponsorship system in A.A. UNDERMINES A.A's ideas!!!
How? Read A.A's 3 "PERTINENT" ideas.

The Outside sponsorship system in A.A. UNDERMINES Gods promises to A.A's
How? You will intuitively be able to handle situations.

The outside sponsorship system has been around a long time and so has evil

How to stay sober?

Simply DON'T DRINK is it possible any other way?

Joined: 2011-10-25
abstinence isn't the only way of staying sober.

Many people believe that not drinking is what keeps you from getting bad feelings. However, changing how we act helps eliminate most bad feelings that made us drink. And changing the way we think helps us from drinking from the bad feelings we allow to cross us by. Don't believe the people who tell you life will be o.k. if you stop drinking. If you don't change as a person simply put you will drink again because you never took care of the bad feelings.

How to stay sober???

Simply DON'T DRINK alcohol and you won't get drunk. If I could have simply stopped drinking, I would have done so. I
certainly would not have to attend all these dreadful AA
meetings. (smile, I love AA). That was what was so puzzling.
I believed that I could stop. Others believed that I could stop. "If that stuff is causing you so much trouble, why don't you just leave it alone"? I did not realize how very
ill I was, at the edge of the cliff, and still dancing around.
I assume that the writer of this posting is a sober
member of Alcoholics Anonymous. Is this what worked for you?
You simply stopped drinking? How did you end up here? If you are not an alcoholic, and not a sober member of AA, I
don't believe you could have much understanding of why the
simple "DON'T DRINK" method is just not a solution for the alcoholic.
Sure, sobriety starts with never taking that first drink.
And we do that one day at a time. But it is usually a bit
more complicated than simply not drinking. Otherwise, why would we need AA? ANONYMOUS

RE:How to stay sober???

"DON'T DRINK" method is just not a solution for the alcoholic"

Nor is the outside sponsorship system a solution

But a good SOLUTION not rea-lies-ing it is that we are ALL beyond human aid and need a power greater than OURselfs stated that God could and would if sought.

Subsitute reliance of God for your sponsor is not a smrt idea if you be Alcoholic.

Joined: 2011-12-21
staying sober

im in serious trouble. I need help getting to meetings. i need support. I made the mistake of starting a serious relationship when I shouldn't have. I cant get to therapy, meetings or anywhere. Icant take much more of myself.

RE: Reply to comment How to stay sober???

"why would we need AA? ANONYMOUS"
To discover the loving God that was down deep in each and every one of us - unless of course your God, i mean friend is a volunteer hand raising sponsor.

RE: How to stay sober???

"Simply DON'T DRINK alcohol and you won't get drunk. If I could have simply stopped drinking, I would have done so."

So do it!! Simple Trust in God clean house and find a friend not some sponsor who volunteered.

A Priest in AA who drinks wine during communion

I was surprised, angry and concerned today when reading The Sac. Bee newspaper about a Priest who says he is in AA and that he is an alcoholic and that he abstains from alcohol except for the sip of wine during Communion. I hope other alcoholics do not look up to this man and think it is ok to have a sip of wine during communion!

surprised, angry and concerned

Having a sip of wine during communion is not the issue here.
Why would an article appear in a newspaper about a priest
who is a member of AA. If the priest is local and the newspaper in the same area, it is almost certain that this
is a violation of tradition eleven: anonymity at the level of press, radio and films.
I am aware of at least one priest who is sober for
decades. The only way I know that he takes communion is
that I see it. I also see him at AA meetings. He refers to
himself as Danny, not even Father Dan. Although he does not
put himself on a pedestal, I certainly look up to him as
an elder statesman. ANONYMOUS

Article "Long Days Past" July 2011, pp. 18-21

A good friend was in Rusty R.'s situation-in prison with no meetings availableuntil he was released. This points out the importance of the Corrections Correspdence Program and its ability to go "where anyone reaches out for help so thhe hand of AA is there

In service Walter G.
W. Palm Beach, FL

No meetings in prison

An AA friend works "in the field". He holds a low paying job
working with men and women who have been released from
correctional facilities. He informes me that virtuallly
every one of his clients has been to AA meetings,
prior to going to prison. We have pushed them out of our rooms, and further down, by the way we conduct our AA and NA meetings. I believe we have almost 40,000 AA members in correctional facilities today. These are the reversals
which must be made at the group level to restore the
effectiveness of Alcoholics Anonymous: Stop reading How
it Works at meetings. Remove the 24hr book from AA
meetings. Stop all forms of chanting. Hi Joe! is a
chant. Stop all praying at meetings. We are not a prayer group. Eliminate the hierarchy, patriarchy sponsor
system. We all come together in AA as equals. Stop
making a spectacle of newcomers, and stop allowing
newcomers to make spectacles of themselves. Maybe
someone "out there" can add to the list. ANONYMOUS

This ain't Burger King.

You don't get it your way. If you don't like the way your group is doing it, all you need is three things to start a group run the way you please. 1. A coffee pot. 2. A Big Book. 3. A resentment.
I will share a little experience at following this advice. The group will probably push you out of the way and do it they way they decipher at their group conscious meetings.
When you get all the answers, let me know.

Yes, that is the process.

The AA group of today is composed of strong personalities who control the meeting and the group conscience. All it takes is one ego-driven loud mouth to start chanting, and the whole group starts chanting. One member can demand that
How it Works be read at the beginning of the meeting, and it will be read. If one or two members want to hold hands and pray, closing the meeting, it will be done. New members
and earlytimers simply quietly walk away. I may not have all
the answers, and I do ask some questions. Do you know that
only one group out of four, in the US and Canada could count
ONE new member for the entire year of 2010?. Do you know that our membership doubled about every ten years until
the early 1990's? We had almost TWO AND A HALF MILLION
members in 1992. Today we boast of TWO MILLION STRONG!! That is just appalling. How do we sleep at night? We
should have at least eight million members in Alcoholics
Anonymous today. Soon all who remain in AA will be KINGs.

Joined: 2012-01-15
AA Is Not a Numbers Game

Your words seem to be awash in fear and judgment. We have members doing all the horrors of which you speak and we have significant numbers of new members-almost all not court referred, as our county, like several district courts, consider AA to be a religion.

You write "The AA group of today is composed of strong personalities who control the meeting and the group conscience." You, like many of us, prove your statement every day, or burn with resentments that you don't have that control.

Relax. Take a deep breath. Don't fight anyone or anything. Try to help the alcoholic who still suffers. Personally. Don't worry about 2 million alcoholics at large. Worry about that newcomer who could use a cup of coffee and an encouraging word. Keep in mind that joy is the theme of AA's 12 steps ....

RE: AA is not...

"as our county, like several district courts consider AA to be a religion". Any concerned AA member ought to be alarmed by that phrase. Bill left us with a stern warning
about turning AA into a religion. We have done just that.
On page 346 Language of the Heart Bill repeats a warning
he had previously written in AACA in 1957 page 232.
Note: I am ever so grateful for this method of expressing my concerns for the future of Alcoholics
Anonymous. I attend an AA meeting almost every day and
am very much concerned with helping the newcomer to feel
welcome. I first offer them "the hand of AA" and show them
the way to the coffee pot. Our coffee is still the best
cup in the world, a quality never before tasted.
I bring up my concerns at business and group conscience
meetings. Several meetings have deleted the reading of HIW.,
and the chanting has started to diminish. Some of our groups
do no chanting at all. Members are beginning to realize how
stupid chanting is.
I do not know if meetings outside my limited locale
have begun to make corrections. I hope so. I wish our
leaders would take an interest and get involved. They
come up with themes such as We are responsible for AA's
future; Let it begin with us. And then they come up with
excuses or remain silent. Excuses for our lack of growth,
our loss of effectiveness. The reason for our failure is
that we have become a religion, a strange cultish religion.
Everyone seems to know this except our own members. ANONYMOUS

Joined: 2012-06-12
Experience Strength and Hope

In Saint Paul, MN, we do not experience the scenario that you are portraying. You are making many judgements on the data alone.

While I think that we can all agree that changes could always be made for the better, and you bring up some very good points, can you possibly tone down the alarmism? Change will take time. We are still helping the sick and suffering alcoholic every day.

Beginners come to this site for hope. Please give them at least that.

May you all find hope, peace and serenity as we trudge this road of happy destiny.

Joined: 2011-08-26

Well said


On relationships

I'm enjoying the latest edition of the Grapevine and it reminded me of what my friend Larry W. used to say over 30 years ago. "Neil he said people will be into your life and out of your life for the rest of your life." Today I realize the truth of that and how precious those relationships are.

Joined: 2011-07-16
Step-Wise Serenity Prayer

Wouldn't imaginative people like Bill W. and Dr. Bob be open to small revisions in the Serenity Prayer every century or so?Here is a "modern" version in 12 lines:


My higher power,
grant me
the serenity
to accept
the things I cannot change,
the courage
to change things
as much as I can,
the wisdom
to know the difference,
and the patience
to receive wisdom.

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