Experience with AA Online?
Sometimes the person we choose to sponsor us is just not a match.
In early sobriety, my judgement about people wasn't all that good although I'd argue rather than admit that. My first sponsor, suggested by the group, met me at the restaurant for our first talk with her pupils blasted wide open with cocaine... and she was trying to tell me how to stay sober. NOT! My second one fired me because I made HER too crazy. The third was the sponsor of my heart who taught me step work as she did her own.
Don't feel guilty about praying for guidance to the right person and trying with someone else. I suggest meeting and talking a couple times before you ask to be sponsored by someone. It is ok to test drive before committing. And if someone you like is too busy, don't take it personally. The right teacher will appear.
sometimes feel have to be part a group to be part of some thing jion my home group last march 2013 relaps two times once in june 2013 and jan 2014 becase feel i dont disseerve to get my one year chip in my home group alway push me to get sponcer still go every tues night meeting
I am 88 days clean. I am a loner in groups. I won't be comfortable in a home group. now I dislike my back-woods ignorant sponsor..but I know I am not drinki n drugging and on step 1 so don't feel bad. some of us cn't get into the party atmosphere of aa. I like talking 1:1 with another druggie like me n don't like sharing in a group. aa has to be individualized to each person. get it? that what I think.
I understand how you feel, i felt the same way and continue to feel that way and I have 23 years sober. In all those years, I've never gone to a meeting by myself. I also like talking one on one. I get sever panic attachs going to meetings with all those people. Anyways about getting a sponsor that you feel is like you might make you less lonely. In my beginnings it was hard because i had 2 small kids and only my parents would watch them and then they went to there dad's house every weekend then i went to 2 a day sometimes. When i attended my first meeting i grabbed the first women i was sitting next to because she was pretty and about my age. I was told to call her every day and even that i couldn't do because i never new what to say. I went through several sponsors and my last one i felt like i was her sponsor. I don't have a spnsor now. My husband has 29 years and he said you don't need a sponsor, but just a friend. I couldn't take a sponsor that was pushy and kept telling me over and over what to do. I don't go to church but I believe in God so he helps me to stay sober.
88 days clean. Hopefully You have 100 days now. Don't
be to hard on your back-woods ignorant sponsor. He/She is
only teaching you as She/He has been taught.
I was a couple years sober before I could say more than
a few words at the group meetings. "My name is Joe, and I
am an alcoholic", (THAT IS STEP ONE), was about it. I would try to mumble a
few words at times. I actually had to get used to the sound
of my own voice. Even in a family of six, most of my life
had been spent in silence. Two years in the US Army was
of great benefit to me. And liquor. Without liquor I don't
know how I would have ever coped.
I still do not like the party atmosphere of A.A. Never
have and never will. IMO it spoils our public image.
Do you really want or need someone giving you directions?
Having a sponsor is certainly not mandatory. It is only
a suggestion, and a mild one at that, IMO. I have never
really had a sponsor in over four decades of abstinence
from alcohol. I have had spiritual advisors and elderly
statesmen who have been of great help. And lots of AA friends and phone numbers.
So you are another loner. Welcome Aboard! Have a good
long sober life. We have some slogans which I like: Live
and Let Live: Easy Does It: and First Things First. My
favorite is "But For The Grace of God", but that Grace
came much later. Bob H. Seymour, Ct.
My name is Terry P. I keep asking myself that question over every day. I live in a small town in USA and I got sober in a big city. Where people could go to meeting and go out for afterwards if you wanted too. But
things like that don't happen in small towns. Especially in certain AA clubs they are the most uncaring
people you ever want to meet in a dark alley. Don't get me wrong not all small towns are like the one I grew
up in. Or the one I now live in which happens to be two different towns in two different states. Many miles
apart. In 1991 I had to go home for my dads funeral I had to spend 13 hours on a train leaving the only support I had at the time.
I was told by certain family members that I was not allowed to bring home my life long partner. Both of my
parents had met the person I had chosen to spend the rest of my life with. I was sober 8.5 years
Wanting a truly anonymous place for 24 hours to chat and there does not be such a place. Well now I have already had a few in my frustration!
Membership in AA is based on our liabilities not our assets so what were you expecting?
Meetings with Bill W are available 24-7. Just pull your Big Book off the shelf and apply any answer you need.
Hi. today is day one of not drinking. I don't like crowds or going out. I do best in quiet and where there is little extraneous distractions. I have been listening to aa speaker tapes online plus I just started following recoverers in their blogs. I started a blog to chronicle the much needed interior transformation. The bottle has been my friend but it cannot be both friend and treat me as bad as it does so the bottle no more is my friend. We have parted ways today. I want to help others online eventually but for now I am not equipped to do so. I am grateful that there is online help, free for the asking, for just showing up.
Drinking like you was my good friend. It takes time to lose that aspect of long career or relationship.I like the one day at a time aspect,that centers me and helps me get on! I am not a people person I like being alone lately? Weird but true,I feel more at ease.
Im 47 and have drank since i was 15. I have been in out of aa. The one time i truly stayed sober was deployment to iraq 18months i dont have anyone to talk to still stigma in military very worroed about health ptsd doesnt help either.......
Ann, I'm a retired Army vet with 20 years active service and several deployments to Iraq since 2003.
More importantly I'm sober now for 4 1/2 years and although the Army sent me to AA initially, I stayed because it works.
There are MANY vets in recovery and as a medical professional I can tell you that your record is confidential and seeking assistance, formal or not, WILL NOT impact your career negatively.
AA is the only fellowship that mirrors my military relationships. It's because we help one another when we are in trouble and have each other's "six".
Please consider going to a local meeting and I assure you it will make you feel better every time. Take care, Les
Both alcoholism and post traumatic stress disorder are treatable. I'm sure that neither require anything like the effort you employed in training and executing your duties. Perhaps difficult for a while. If your best thinking hasn't fixed you, perhaps it's time to use someone else's. "In and out of AA" is a tell. The difference between a chicken and a pig before a ham and egg breakfast. The chicken was involved, the pig was committed. Those of us who are committed to recovery recover. Sitting in meetings watching others use the program is like sitting on the deck of the Titanic watching others use the life boats.
I don't know if this is within AA's non-affiliation but I would rather error toward assisting you than not. Last week at a Friday night men's meeting about six guys visited from a VA treatment center. They liked us and what we were doing. They were also pleased with the VA program. One said he had been through treatment in a super expensive rehab in California and of course continued drinking and said the VA was better.
We see a lot of men come and go but I really had a good feeling about this bunch.
I got sober thirty years ago. Vets then were Vietnam vets of course. Every one felt so uniquely troubled that no one could understand them. They came to AA. They stopped drinking. They used the twelve step program of recovery. Their other problems faded away with their alcoholism. New lives, new families new careers. Some still come to meetings to share what they received. Look for them.
A great deal is available to you if you seek it.
Although I was never in the military, I too came in with alcoholism and PTSD. I was definitely the pig. Committed and gobbling up everything I could digest. Yum! Sobriety. You are so right on! All the other problems fade away with the alcoholism.
Shirley K. Kern River Valley, CA
“We, of Alcoholics Anonymous are more than one hundred men and women who have recovered from a seemingly hopeless state of mind and body. To show other alcoholics precisely how we have recovered is the main purpose of this book.”
Foreword to the first addition of “Alcoholics Anonymous”
Just before the BB was submitted for print, several
important changes were made. It originally read The purpose of this book is to tell alcoholics how they can recover. It was changed it to read This is the story of how we (the
first hundred members) recovered. If you do not understand
the difference, please read it from the books again. This
wording is just from memory. The story is told and is
offered in a suggestive manner to anyone who might be
interested. There is a solution: Don't drink alcohol,
period. Do whatever you need to do to accomplish this. We
allow you to figure this out.
If I could just "not drink" I would not need AA. I tried to not drink for 17 years. It didn't work. It wasn't until I found AA and all that it encompasses that I was relieved of the obsession to take that first drink. "Just don't drink" addresses the physical part of my affliction but does nothing for the mental obsession that opens the door to the first drink.."this time it will be different, just a couple, it's been a long time, a couple of beers won't hurt..."
The magic or miracle of AA for me was that the mental obsession to drink was completely removed the day I did the 3rd step with my sponsor over 25 years ago. I immediately went on to the rest of the steps so I don't know that it was the 3rd that did it. Whatever. Now I can just not drink on a daily basis as long as I maintain my spiritual condition.
If I could have stopped drinking on my own accord I
certainly would have stopped. I tried everything I knew.
I would not have had to attend all these dreadful AA
meetings. (here is where I have to tell the group they
can laugh). They all know I love AA.
I knew I needed to quit drinking; I honestly wanted to
quit for good but could "not drink" only short periods
I was able to stop by God's Grace. I had expended all
of my "power". Using the principles I found in Alcoholics
Anonymous, I have not had a drink of any alcoholic beverage
in four decades.
"It wasn't until I found AA, AND ALL THAT IT ENCOMPASSES
that I was relieved of the obsession to take that first drink". Me, too. Thanks. Bob H. Seymour, CT.
Bill W. discovered in his first six months of what he
called "violent exertion", that prospects do not respond
favorably to the HIW approach. But, by using advice from
Dr. Silkworth, Bill found an approach which did work. By
offering the gift of sobriety with sincere humility and
weakness and with teaspoons instead of buckets, sobriety
is achieved. Dr. Silkworth offered a "few simple rules".
Contrary to popular belief, these rules are not the
twelve steps. The "little doctor" had tried these
methods for twenty years with little success. The
"cart before the horse IDEA" offered by Silkworth is
what really worked.
Another change before the BB went to print was
the opening of chapter five. Rarely have we seen anyone fail
who has thoroughly followed our path. This originally
read "Thoroughly followed our directions". They do not mean the same thing. Giving directions to an alcoholic rarely works.
So we only offer a path to follow. ANONYMOUS
In general my experience with AA online has not been very positive in regards to being in the chatroom when meetings were not going on. Many of the regulars in the room were very controlling as well as passive aggressive. Dismissive of anything that was said that was different than what the group mentality was at the time. I found coming to the room outside of the meeting time to be the worst. Reply #45 of this thread is exactly the attitude that many of the online regular AA members had to anyone coming into the room. If you do not understand your issue in the same way as those people did, you were not trying hard enough, you were making excuses,... etc. It is a waste of time to look for emotional support in the online AA room. Which is very unfortunate because I think that is a very important aspect of recovery, the shared 'we'. That we do not face this problem alone. I would think compassion and understanding would be at the forefront of exchanges between members but the several times I have been in the online AA room it was severely lacking.
I work and go to school full time while utilizing public transportation as my means to get around, it is very difficult for me to get to meetings. Someone telling me that I am making an excuse without trying to fully understand where I am coming from is frustrating and not going to help me in my recovery journey.
As far as meetings are considered, I believe the online meetings to be a great place to start but would not rely on them solely.
I am just listening.
Three enquiries. We owe you answers and fast.
AA.org is a good place to start.
I use the book Alcoholics Anonymous and Twelve Steps and Twelve Traditions.
Both are available at most AA meeting places and some public libraries and book stores and online auctions and book stores. Cheap from all sources.
AA is easy to find in North America and Europe and available in dozens of other countries. Telephone directories and online searches will get you meeting locations and schedules.
We don't care who you are. We don't care if you use your real name. We don't want your money. When we can afford a dollar or two we put it in the basket. There are enough of us who AA made successes of that there is always enough. What are called "Closed Meetings" are for anyone with a desire to stop drinking, that's all. "Open" meetings also allow others to attend. You don't have to sat "I'm Joe or Sue and I am an alcoholic" like on TV. Many of us do but new people are under no pressure to say anything. It should be easy to find someone after the meeting to visit with one on one or ask questions if you want. If you don't like the first one try a different location or even time. Our groups vary a great deal.
Many of us look back at how we hid our cars two blocks from the AA meeting place but had used the parking closest to the bar or liquor store. We don't care if the world knows we are drunks but want to keep quiet about stopping? Most people know we have drinking problems. Thousands of employers send tens of thousands of employees to get help every year. It's a disease and they know it.
One fact we don't see often enough - We need to stop the drinking and learn to live with whatever the results are. I couldn't "study up" on how to stop. I had to stop, then study.
Doctor? One of our two founder was a physician and thousands more have followed. You should have known better? Should a doctor "know better" than to get an aneurism? I didn't drink insanely because I was stupid, I drank insanely because I have the disease of alcoholism and didn't know it and sure didn't know what to do about it. With AA's help that changed completely and permanently almost thirty four years ago. You are welcome to join me and millions more.
For you that wants twenty four hours, not two years, I know what you mean. I just wanted to take a break from drinking, get straightened out, start over with a clean slate. Found out I had a disease called alcoholism with three main symptoms.
Drinking a small amount set up a craving for just one more, then one more, then one more, that I could not stop,
I couldn't stay away from that first drink, I could always think up another excuse or another good reason,
and I deny the first two symptoms. (It will be different this time because...) It was the same hundreds of times but I expect it to be different. Repeating behavior - expecting different results, insanity.
It started with me taking action - making the call - walking through the door. It's open for you if you want it.
I am after years of heavy drinking looking for help. A friend recommended I go to AA meetings. My worry is that someone there may recognize me and tell my employer. Can I start online ?
I had the same fears when I wanted to get sober. The things I didn't realize included that everybody already knew I was a drinker, and that going to AA is a good thing. I also did not know about anonymity and that most people are busy thinking about themselves...not me.
Sure you can start online, and go to very early morning meetings or Sunday AM meetings to find more sobriety and respect for anonymity. The important thing is not to give up on getting sober. If you are able to pray...ask to be kept sober.
Hi, My name is Edgar ...and once , I was exactly the way you feel now . I went to an AA meeting , sat in the back covering my face , just not to be recognize by anybody in my town , in fear to lose my Job .
And guess What ? Days , weeks and months passed on , my life got better and my employer ...was happier with the way I was working : More productive , more responsible ..more trustable . That was 35 years ago . Today , EMPLOYERS are more aware of our illness and Helpful ...So , please ...Don't be scare of what people or bosses may say ...I am pretty sure , they will support you in every way , and you ONE DAY AT A TIME will be a HAPPY and CONTENT MAN ....So , go Please , Do not Stop ...you are there because someone LOVE YOU ....AND IF YOU BELLIEVE , everything will change .
Perhaps you should talk to your boss about your plans. it helps being completely honest. Also, it's called Alcohols Anonymous. People shouldn't be worrying about telling others who is in the rooms. It is a privilege to be in the program. One shouldn't be ashamed about trying to get their life in order.
I'm trying to start to be sober, the only way is online, but people are talking 2 years sober, I'm just wanting 1 day, 1 day at a time.
I'm trying to start to be sober, the only way is online, but people are talking 2 years sober, I'm just wanting 1 day, 1 day at a time.
PLEASE DON'T WORRY ABOUT OTHER PEOPLES TIME! JUST DO YOU, ONE DAY AT A TIME BECAUSE...GUESS WHAT? DAYS TURN INTO WEEKS, WEEKS TURN INTO MONTHS, AND MONTHS TURN INTO YEARS!!:-)
Hi I'm Wongani. I'm 25 years old and I have a drinking problem. I was sobber for almost a year then I fell off the wagon. I cant seem to stop now. I feel guilty and promise myself I'll change but the guilt wears off and I drink again. I had a heart attack last year and I know I shouldn't drink but I always go back to it. What's worse is I'm a doctor and I should know better. I want to be sober again but I'm all alone in this and there's no one I can talk to. If you're there anyone, please help!
We admitted we were powerless over alcohol—that our lives had become
Came to believe that a Power greater than ourselves could restore us to
You just have to believe, because all of us are believing for you!
I am 22 years sober thanks to this incredible program. Got sober at 25. I went through the revolving door with AA and jumping off the wagon for years because I just wasn't willing to go to any lengths for sobriety. There was always a reason to go back out. Once I was scared and miserable enough to really work this, start listening to these AAers and do everything they said even if it seemed stupid and strange, I finally started to get it. Because they were happy, healthy, free and I was not, I had to stop my excuses and start taking some serious action.
For years, I had this voice in my head that said if I didn't drastically change my ways, something terrible was going to happen. Like I was going to kill someone while driving drunk, or let something horrible happen to someone while they were in my care. At that point, you have to live this program like it's your last possible chance at a normal decent life. That's what I did. Embrace this program with every ounce of your soul and don't let go. Because hardly anybody who has ever had a drinking problem can solve it through human effort alone. Even if they stop the drink, they replace it with another addiction so they never become happy, joyous and free. Just another still suffering alcoholic.
When I was 25 years old I suspected that I was probably
an alcoholic. I had seen enough of alcoholism to know that
I was one, or soon would be. I tried to stop but seldom
made it more than a few weeks. In the next couple of years
I feared that I would be dead by the time I was 30.
A co-worker took me to an AA meeting. I could not
understand how AA could help me. But I was sober on my
28th birthday and have not had a drink of alcohol in
more than four decades. I joined AA and have never
regretted it. I regret that AA has changed so much. I
was involved in some of the mistakes.
Don't drink. Don't take that first drink today. Do
whatever you have to do to stay away from alcohol.
Get yourself a set of handcuffs. Walk into the woods
and handcuff yourself to a tree. Take an energy bar
and your cell phone. Call someone to come with bolt
cutters. Preferably someone from AA who will understand.
Stay sober. Stay alive. We need doctors who know
what it is like to need a drink. I wish you all the
best. Make a real effort to attend six AA meetings
in different locations. Out of the six hopefully there
will be one where you can feel accepted. ANONYMOUS
I was sober about 11 years and on the road supporting a technology conference in Denver in mid December. On the day I was to fly home, a big snowstorm hit that cancelled all flights. I was forced to share a room with one of the other consultants. That evening, I managed to find a meeting close by and made my way there through the snow. The next morning at breakfast my roomie asked where I'd gone the night before. I said, "a meeting" . He said, "what kind of meeting". Not being in the least ashamed of my disease or recovery I said AA. He reached his hand across the table and said, "20 years". That night, still stuck in town, we were invited to the Christmas party of the company we were consulting for. He and I shared a few knowing smiles throughout the night as we watched a few of our compatriots hit the skids.
Because I was travelling a lot in those days and did not have a solid relationship with a sponsor, I asked my roomie to become my cyber sponsor. Our electronic relationship lasted for several years. Occasionally we'd find ourselves in the same town working a project and would head to meetings together. Eventually, I got off the road, settled in a town in the northwest and found a solid home group & sponsor. My relationship with my cyber sponsor waned. Then one day, there he was in a local meeting. He had settled in the same town. He's now retired here and we see each other frequently.
Thanks for a sincere AA message. I believe that is what
Bill W. meant when he wrote about PROPER sponsorship.
Is this what they call a chat room?
I'm a very good drinker, not so good
on the computer. I'm nakita and have
been sober for three years but love
listening to how others deal with
there soberity. I've done my steps
but we are going to add to my 4th
step and really go deep. I have a
lot of issues to let go of. I tell
my sponce's when it's time,
god will let you know.
I have been in the program for three years now.
The problem is the price of gas. I go to three
meetings a day, I chair on Sundays, I am very
involved with AA. I am however not all that great
on the computer but would love to chat or listen
to a speaker or go to a meeting
I live about 30 mn from any direction to get to
a meeting and was wondering about online meetings.
Hey! February 18, 2003....stroke. 53yrs is 10yrs! My left side is fine. The damage was my right side. Stroke survisors!!
A.A, pot (weed), cocaine & smoke-free!! I'm so happy!!!
I am in a treatment center and can only attend 3 meetings per week. And now I have discovered XAspeakers and this forum..so I am quite thrilled. Doing step 8 now, after 95 days sober. Take care guys
Thanks for checking in.
I think of getting sober like going through a funnel backwards. In the beginning we have more problems and fewer solutions than we ever will again. It can be a tight squeeze but it can get better.
There is something called a meeting with Bill W. Reading the Big Book. To me it is essential to get the information from the source. When you walk into a room, everyone there became members based on their liabilities not their assets. It isn't called genius anonymous or good guy anonymous is it? You'll find great people, and the Bill will show you which ones they are.
I am just "listening".
no I have never done this. no it was giving to me from the program that iam attending called Lifestream. and yes I live in a remote area, no this is my first, I AM REALLY just learing to use this computer let alone have to do aa meetings online. I could use all the help I can get. My story is not a good one I was charge with my first D.U.I. AND WHAT MAKES IT SO BAD IAM A MOM WHO TAUGH MY BOYS NOT TO DRINK AND DRIVE..... BUT I forgot my own rule, I was gooood for 26 or so years,then decide to drive one night. so now Iam not only in trouble with the law,BUT I have to here it from my now grown sons. need help
You are doing just fine with AA online. Thanks for joining us.
AA.org is the main website for AA, A lot of good information there.
I don’t know about your drinking and driving but I can share what I know about mine.
I am an alcoholic. I have a disease called alcoholism which has two prominent symptoms.
If I drink a small amount of alcohol I cannot predict the outcome. All of my priorities change from whatever I was planning to one more drink and one more drink and one more… Maybe sometimes I could have controlled it but I couldn’t rely on it and once drinking I really didn’t want to control it. I liked the feeling that alcohol gave me but I couldn’t keep from drinking too much, driving, making other bad decisions.
The second symptom I had was I couldn’t stay from alcohol. I would always find an excuse to drink. As I aged it became more frequent. Tied in with this was denial that there was a problem. Whatever went wrong last time wasn’t because of alcohol. It was because I didn’t eat before. I was really hot and was so thirsty..; I shouldn’t drink with those guys and on and on. It would be different next time. Hundreds of times it would be different next time. Repeating behavior, expecting different results, the definition of insanity.
As an alcoholic, I don’t think my thinking works like normal people. I don’t think my feelings work like normal people. I stopped drinking. What had I done when I felt lonely? Drink. What did I do when I felt angry? Drink. Scared? Drink. Frustrated? Drink. Grief? Drink. With all of your troubles, probably legal, driving, insurance, money you listed something else as the worst – embarrassed. Sounds familiar.
I learned that complete abstinence was the only answer for me. I stopped drinking. AA taught me how to clear away the wreckage of the past, live well in the present and be optimistic about the future. It’s a program of action. I do the twelve steps listed on the sign on the wall. I don’t go to meetings and watch other people do them. It started with one day and it’s been working for over thirty three years now. It is absolutely free and the most valuable thing I have. It is available if you want it. Thanks for checking in with us. If you want to know more about Alcoholics Anonymous read our twelve traditions. Read and believe every word of it because that’s exactly how we operate.
I have a online AA chat group that is a great support group with wonderful meetings at www.e-aa.org
How odd to see an online discussion - online. Not everyone has the blessings of multiple meetings or club houses. Online forums have their place in sobriety.
I was sober for A few years when I became strong enough to leave my abusive husband. I was at a domestic violence shelter and I was in a city far from where my husband lived.I have been trying to stay sober since my early 20's and I knew many AA people from all over. The shelter allowed me to go to meetings so I Would go to two a day. One morning I saw someone I knew from distant meetings in the past. I guess he could not wait to run out and inform my ex of my whereabouts. Never in a million years would I think this guy would tell my ex. That night I was sitting there and in walked my ex. I jumped and ran and ran some more. If I had not been sober and working out I would be dead now! I did not trust AA meetings at that time. Who could? I did many online AA meetings even while being stalked for 3 years. I could not call my old sponsor and the abused person's unit wanted me sever ties with people who knew my ex from the rooms as I started my new life in a different city.
I got through it all by online AA for awhile and then when things calmed down and they found my ex and locked him up I began going to F2F meetings. After 14 years of content sobriety I hurt my back so bad I had to have 2 major surgeies, pain drove me over the edge. I drank about 5 days and ended up in ICU for 10 days with pancreatitis and a host of ailments that together could've killed me. I was so ashamed of myself I was doing online meetings and after about a week I decided to just walk into the rooms. I am so glad online meetings were there for me until I could get back to the rooms. That relapse taught me alot and today my sobriety is stronger than ever. I work extra hard because I am scared, got a good sponsor and I am all about AA sometimes online, but mostly daily for F2F. Thank God for AA!
Hi Juanita, I', pat and I'm 56 until feb 3. My husband has been stalking me for at least 25 years and has finally bought a house two blocks from mine. He is to smart to do
any thing anymore that could put him in jail. I look at him
as someone who would benifit from this program even though
he isn't an alcoholic. He has tried to kill me twice in the
past. God has been a big part of my recovery and I just have to know that he has a plan for me. Helping myself is part of my plan. I keep a pepper spray on my bed stand and I have a little one in my purce. These are sick men and unless the reach out for help there isn't alot we can do about it. You will be in my prayers and you are already in
Gods hands. Do though find a way to protect not only yourself but you sobriety. Pat
Hi Im Juanita 60 year old here Im an alcoholic..23 years. Have not had
a drink since April 1 2013. One day at a time. Its not a easy road
but its either get sober or die a slow death. The latter is no fun as I have
seen what chirrosis of the liver can do to people. It is a slow and painful
death. Its all in how you want to live your life