Burning Desire to Share

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Joined: 2009-08-28

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Uncomfortable with the prayer and for me maybe other stuff

Does anyone, (I am not casting aspersions on you),read the big book anymore? In this case maybe page 19?
The book also says finding a Higher Power is the exact purpose of this book, it doesn't say find God.
I personally am uncomfortable with other things in AA today such as the chanting. People want that defined
so I am talking about responding in unison to things that are read. We are not allied with any sect so why
are we trying so hard to become a sect? It's like being in church and the pastor speaks and the congregation responds! Or the argument about talking about drugs. If you are an alcoholic and drugs are part of you story
you can talk about them. "Next day found me taking both Gin and sedative". (That shouldn't be in quotations marks as I am paraphrasing). There is a lot of BS in meetings but there is truth in the Big Book. I know it isn't the Bible but it is certainly a guide book for me. "Whoever got up earliest this morning has the most sobriety". Who came up with this? A chronic slipper? I am definitely not in the same place I was in when I
came into the program. "Ninety meetings in ninety days". Then what? You graduate? "Get a temporary sponsor".
What? For temporary sobriety? "Don't drink and go to meetings?". But what I do in between living with the dry drunk in my head? "A drug is a drug". Probably quoted by a treatment center with only one van.
I could go on of course as I have a "magic magnifying mind". If I could implore people in AA to do one thing I think it would be to please read and study the book, (and stop chanting). If I could give the newcomer one
gift it would be willingness. Twenty four years of not always fun and games sobriety but it is better than
what I had and each day I learn more.
I love you all and there is nothing you can do about it. Ray C.

Joined: 2012-02-25
Group prayer

My name is Mike, alcoholic, sober since March 1990.

I am writing to express the opinion that group prayer in meetings cross the line from a personal spiritual journey to a religious practice. I pray and meditate on my own time and in my own space outside AA meetings. When group prayer and prayer circles are conducted they are perceived by many as religious. It is offensive to atheists, agnostics and many non-religious members. When prayer circles and group prayer begin I do not participate and often just leave the room. If enough members did likewise group prayer might soon become a thing of the past.

Prayer and religion in AA has been controversial for 80 years. The Christian, “Lord’s Prayer”, is used to close the vast majority of AA meetings. I believe this practice has been wrong from the start. Rather than replacing The Lord’s Prayer with the less religious Serenity Prayer most groups chose to utilize both at their meetings making the prayer controversy worse.

I am neither atheist nor agnostic. I do not attend church but I’m ok with those who do. I am opposed to members preaching, evangelizing or trying to converting others to their God. Our 10th tradition states AA has no opinion on outside issues which includes sectarian religion. Therefore our meetings ought to be free of all forms of religious or cult practices.

Many newcomers come to AA wanting nothing to do with God or religion but that is what they find. What do we think goes through their minds when they see and hear the following; prayer circles, group prayer, religious prayers, chanting, reading from the Bible or other religious books and singing religious songs? All this happens inside churches where many of our meetings are held. Although we state AA is a spiritual program and not religious our meetings are overwhelmed with religious aspecs that I believe destroys the attraction and public relations of AA.

Our meetings ought to be free of all outside issues. Eliminating group prayer and prayer circles are a good start. Group prayer in meetings should, in theory, have nothing to do with my personal spiritual journey. The solution to this problem begins and ends at the individual and group levels. Closing on a positive note, we recently started a men’s closed discussion group here that follows all 12 Traditions. We open and close with a moment of silence (for personal prayer and meditation) and end with a message of hope from A Vision for You (Alcoholics Anonymous, page 164). So far it is working well and attendance is growing. I am extremely grateful and proud of my new AA home group.

Mike B.
Oliver, BC, Canada

Joined: 2013-04-23

The topic of prayer brought up a lot of memories for me,
I was so beat down and dying on the inside that I'm grateful
I experienced an "inner shift" I think when I starting coming to
meetings on August 8, '88. Basically, without any conscious
effort on my part, I found myself being willing to suspend
judgement regarding whatever was going on at meetings. I experienced
hope and caring (or love as I recognized later on) for the first time
in quite a while which let me to keep coming back and not take
a drink between meetings. I recall a member coming up and (noticing
my being of South Asian origin) asking if I had problems saying the
Lords Prayer. Till that time, I had not even known that the Lords
Prayer was a religious prayer (I had thought it was an AA prayer!)
My experience with prayer is that it helps me and my attitude.
I've grown to be comfortable with a Higher Power in my life
who I view as my best friend and my prayers are in the form
of talking to him. I find that talking to my higher power relieves
me of self-centered fear that I can easily get into on problems
big or small and helps me to realize that I am in his care and
that he has carried me through all kinds of life's challenges
and given me an opportunity for a beautiful life in which I
have everything I need (which is different from having everything
I want!).

re: uncomfortable with prayer

Pray don't pray. Look to the Big Book for all the answers. People have as many opinions on what it takes to stay sober as Carter has - well, little liver pills. There are no rules in AA. You are a member if you say you are. There is no requirement to pray. Isn't that just the neatest thing. There is also no requirement that a person not tell another that they need to pray. Someone once told me that if I could stay sober in AA, I could stay sober anywhere. I think they were making reference to the many personalities and conflicts and opportunities to develop resentments about what I am told by other members. I do not pray the lords prayer because it is Christian and for me AA must stay non-religeous. Half the time I know there must be a God and the other half I am sure we are deluded. Who cares - not the members of AA if they are tending to the business of their own recovery. I am just not that important. AA can take me or leave me but I must find a way to be with AA or I will drink and to drink again, for me, is to die. Faith is not required. Willingness, honesty, and open mindedness are and they can be developed slowly over time. The key seems to be to be seeking. To be wanting to find a way out. To yearn for something better and to never be closed minded toward spiritual principles. Pray don't pray. Don't drink and go to meetings and read the Big Book of Alcoholics Anonymous and perhaps we will see each other at a meeting some day.

Yesterday I learned that my

Yesterday I learned that my father died a week ago. I had years without dealing with him. My parents are separated for a gambling problem. He died alone, utterly alone, all for a gambling problem, he didn’t to accept, he didn’t accept that he had a gambling problem, not wanting to stop playing. I forgive my father, I had not dealings with him but forgive.

Uncomfortable with Prayer

Does anyone feel uncomfortable praying? I wasn’t raised in religion and I don’t see why I have to believe in God and pray to obtain sobriety or to be a member of AA as I was told recently. Some guy informed me AA is really about finding God and obeying his will. I identify with being an alcoholic and having an addiction because I screwed up my life considerably but, I don’t identify with the religious elements in the rooms. I respect the religious and spiritual members but, I wish members in my group would return the favor and respect me. I’m starting to feel exceptive and not accepted. My doctor told me that alcoholism is a medical health issue and not a lack of religion issue. If the founders were atheists would the Fellowship accept religious people? I think they would. I don’t want to drink anymore. My life has never felt a lack of a loving creator or a need for mysticism. I feel connected when people talk about alcoholism and all its waste products and when the God talk begins I try not to close up and listen sincerely because I know that this topic is so important to the majority. Once I shared my feelings at a discussion meeting and some cranky old guy told me I will drink again. Why would he say that to me? I share that same desire to stop drinking as he does and maybe even more because I’m closer to the fire then he is. Can anyone relate?

Joined: 2014-03-20
Religion or Spirituality; what's it all about?

The rude answer is is to tell 'em to keep drinking until prayer begins to look like a better option. However I understand the frustration because I had it when I got here. I believed in God almighty with all my heart but I couldn't stay sober more than about 4 or 5 days. We say A.A. is a spiritual program, not a religious program meaning we focus on changing the way we look at things rather than practicing a particular faith. That way even an atheist can get sober using a higher power. The basic difference between religion and spirituality is with religion they tell you who god is and how to worship him etc. With spirituality, we learn to practice spiritual principles (patience, tolerance kindliness and love to name a few) with the help of a god of "our own understanding". The way to get help is to ask for it and that is where prayer comes in. I must remember that it is not God that needs to hear my prayers it is ME. It is the experience of feeling free from the obsession that that helps us to define our "Higher Power"'; mine not yours. And over time we come to realize that it has been weeks since we even thought about drinking. How could that happen? Never could do it on my own......

Not religious either

I was no fan of religion either. I’m still not. There is nothing unusual about us. Step Two does not say “Bring the Higher Power you already have to AA along with you”. It says find one. If we already had one that was getting the job done we wouldn’t need to be here, would we? I followed the suggestions in the chapter to the agnostic and found that there was indeed a Power that could solve my problem. This power pointed out to me that there are about a hundred words following the third step prayer, expanding on it, and then “Next we launched out on a vigorous course of action…”p63. It is perfectly obvious to anyone who reads it that this “course of action” is the God’s will business that we made a decision to carry out. The course of action is not to get religion. It is also perfectly clear to me that we are to turn our will over to the “care” of God not the “control” of God. It’s a one way street. God, who by my definition has everything, wants nothing from us but proves to be willing to give us what we need to solve our problem. There is nothing written about “obeying”, it’s about seeking answers to solve our problem and using them. When the course of action gets to “shortcomings” or “character defects” in steps four through ten, it’s not about sins against an angry God; it’s about ferreting out behaviors that simply don’t work. Behavior that puts us at odds with others. Behavior that in the long run make us so miserable that we need to turn off the pain with increasing doses of alcohol. The result is total devastation. I encourage you to go to the source, get the information straight, and continue attending meetings armed with this knowledge. Perhaps you will begin to see that the discomfort you feel is not coming from others, discomfort you can do nothing about, and begin to see the pain is generated by your own alcoholism which AA has a formula to banish from your life.

re: uncomfortable

Since AA attracts only very sick people and membership is open to anyone with a desire to stop drinking, those attending meetings or writing here are capable of telling you almost anything. How it Works cautions us about who we can expect to find in the membership. The only credible source of information is in AA’s literature starting with “Alcoholics Anonymous” and “Twelve Steps and Twelve Traditions”. They contain hundreds of references to God, prayer and AA being a spiritual program of recovery. The Big Book, “Alcoholics Anonymous”, has a chapter specifically written for atheists and agnostics. The twelve and twelve expands on the subject.
There is a ridiculous notion that AA’s Tradition Three “The only requirement for membership is a desire to stop drinking” is a license to dream up any kind of behavior, pass it off as a program of recovery and call it AA. That doesn’t work in the rest of the world and it doesn’t work here.
I imagine the requirement for membership to Harvard is something like a high scholastic standing and about fifty thousand dollars tuition. If an applicant meets these requirements and is accepted do they get to step in and do as they please or do they need to attend classes, do their homework and do everything else Harvard students do? The requirement for membership to the Boy Scouts is to be a boy and at least eleven years old. Does an eleven year old boy sign up and stop there? Not in my experience. If I was to be a Scout, then I needed to pitch tents, build campfires, tie knots, attend scout meetings and carry out dozens of other activities. They didn’t change the organization to my specifications or what I was comfortable with and I doubt if Harvard or anyone else would either. That is the difference between a requirement for membership and what membership entails. For a description of what AA membership entails read “Alcoholics Anonymous”.

Joined: 2012-05-30
re harvard

well said!

Joined: 2014-03-31

I'm not uncomfortable with prayer on a personal level and always join in with the Serenity and end of meeting prayers. I was raised Catholic & altar boy and prayed a lot during my drinking years. (God help me!) My concern about prayer & ritual in AA is how it might affect the newcomer. Do the prayers & rituals and hand holding narrow the door and raise the bar? Are they necessary? Might we begin and end our meetings with a simple moment of silence?

There is NO DOUBT that AA is a spiritual program. But, our founders were careful to give members wide latitude in finding a personal spiritual path.

The pinnacle of our step work is Love in action as we carry the message of AA to others and practice the principles of AA in all of our affairs. This tends to make our AA meetings and interactions full of love and compassion. Do we narrow the doorway and raise the bar to AA with formulaic prayers & rituals?

RE; Prayer

Do we narrow the doorway and raise the bar to A.A. with
formulaic prayers and rituals? You asked the question.
The answer is YES!. In the 1970s and 1980s we opened our
meetings with the preamble and the serenity prayer and
closed with The Lords Prayer. It was always "for those
who wish to join". No one was coerced to participate.
Our A.A. membership doubled in each of those decades
at a reasonable rate of effectiveness.
With the publication of the fourth edition of the BB
came the acceptance of the "hold hands and pray" closing.
The evidence is in. My question to you is this: What
are you doing about it, except posting the message here?
Are you willing to get your hands dirty and work for
reversal of our mistakes. Bill warned us of the
blunders we might make. IMO, we have made all or them.
Believe me, it won't be easy. ANONYMOUS

RE - ReplyPrayer-what are you doing?

You asked the question, "What are you doing about it?" I'm staying sober one day at a time like you. I'm doing the next right thing by not picking up the first drink and reaching out to others by sharing my thoughts. To me, the next right thing besides being true to myself and honest is to continue showing up to work, as well as, trying to be present for my wife and kids. Currently besides meetings, every other week I volunteer my carpentry skills with Habitat of Humanity. That's enough for now because focusing on keeping sober is the most important thing I can do. What are you doing about your sobriety except preaching? You forgot to add wisdom in your delivery. Sobriety is hidden in what we do and not what we tell others what to do. It doesn't take an old timer to understand that one and it doesn't take years in AA to live in goodness and to be kind to others.

Re: uncomfortable with prayer

First I would like to share that I'm somewhere between an atheist and an agnostic; I love AA, haven't had a drink in 20 years, and have a life beyond my wildest imagination. Stick with AA and you will be surprised what your life will become. I can guarantee that.

Most AA meetings end with either the Lord's Prayer (more traditional groups) or the Serenity Prayer. Although I'm not a Christian I am fond of the Lord's Prayer. It's ancient and very simple. I like the fact that we ask for our daily bread. We live in a fabulously wealthy society, historically speaking and also compared to many countries in the world. We forget that most people in history and many people living today have to think about where their daily meal is coming from. It also is about forgiveness for ourselves and others. If there's a simpler, better way to happiness than that, I don't know what it is.

All that being said, there will be a minority of people in AA who are nervous that you don't believe in their God. It might make them question their own faith, and they don't want to do that. I try to show compassion for those people. They can't actually do you any harm.

Always remember Tradition 3: "The only requirement for AA membership is a desire to stop drinking." The sentence is only 12 words long, it's remarkable how many people forget it, again and again.

Joined: 2014-05-19

The amazing part of AA is that it requires a spiritual change for success. There is no where in AA literature that says just come and sit and you will be ok. It does say tho that I must set aside my old ideas for new ones. When you do this you o longer have to struggle with others experiences. We give up the fight.The people i my life that helped me to my experience also told me that if you did not wish to follow our path you may feel free to start your ow form of recovery. Just don't call it AA. There is o right and wrong only slow painful death for the alcoholic that uless you fid a path that works. So we allow people to stay until they find our path or they are free to leave. We just hate to see you suffer. God bless and may your journey be peacefilled.

Joined: 2013-09-05
Uncomfortable with Prayer

Uncomfortable with prayer? So don't pray. I have quite a few friends in AA who don't join in the prayers, none have been asked to leave meetings.
In my experience the ones who get the most attention about not praying or not believing in a Higher Power are the ones who make the biggest public issue about it.
Your doctor told you, "that alcoholism is a medical health issue and not a lack of religion issue." Do you want to get sober with AA or with your doctor?

response to "So don't Pray"

Out of respect, your post does not make much sense and is a bit close-minded and arrogant. You said, “Do you want to get sober with AA or with your doctor?” From that statement I can only ascertain you believe AA is a religious program? I don’t believe it is and that is why when I was told I wouldn’t get sober because I am a non-believer at this time I felt dejected. Why put down the medical professional? I am sober today with the help of both AA and my doctor. We are asked to share are experience, strength and hope. What you added was judgment and ego. I came to this post to ask if any one felt the same way or had a similar personal experience with the topic. Your comment was not necessary and grandstanding. If you read correctly, you would find that I absolutely have total respect for believers in AA. I was not attacking AA in any way. I like meetings but feel uncomfortable and all I was asking for was to find out if I was not alone or if others had struggled with this issue at one time. If they had I wanted to learn how to feel comfortable and accepted at meetings. You see I do want to stay sober and that is why I asked this question. Now can you see how you comment was like a lead balloon? I want to thank some of the other comments which were helpful and compassionate.

Joined: 2013-09-05
Re: Response.T

The biggest problem with mail, whether it be email or snail mail, is that only the words are seen, not expressions and vocal tone is not heard.
That said, let me ask you a question. Are you comfortable with everything your doctor tells you to do? I'm certainly not, yet I do what he say because I want to recover from whatever it is he's treating me for.
In my early days I was very uncomfortable with the idea of depending on a Higher Power but I did it because I believed what I was told, that "God could and would if He were sought."
I was uncomfortable with my fifth and ninth step but did them because I wanted to recover from alcoholism.
So I repeat, don't pray if you don't want to. But don't expect everybody to stop praying because it makes you uncomfortable.

re to Response. T

You said, "So I repeat, don't pray if you don't want to. But don't expect everybody to stop praying because it makes you uncomfortable." It's uncanny how you comments miss the mark. What on earth made you think I expect others to stop praying? Please get your "I-just-want-to-believe-what-I-just-want-to-believe" glasses checked. In fact, I'm sincerely happy for the prayer people in the rooms although that magic world is beyond my understanding of how the universe works. Anything that helps another member stay sober will have my 100% support and praise. Its extremely inspiring to me when people find the combinations of things that keep them sober because it gives me hope that I too shall find the things that I need to find to stay sober, even if prayer will not end up in that sobriety equation.

RE: Uncomfortable with Prayer

I can certainly understand your concern. I do not think
we ought to pray at AA meetings. We are not a prayer group.
Pray on your own time, at home or church, not here.
This did not seem to be an issue, until the "hold hands
and pray" ritual began. Anyone who was not comfortable with
the opening and closing prayer simply did not join in. They
were not coerced to join the herd. If the group decides to
open with the serenity prayer, and close with the Lords
Prayer, it ought to do so. If the truly informed group
conscience decided to close in a different way, it should
do so. Bill W's "Dear Russ" letter explains this much
better than I can. ANONYMOUS

Joined: 2012-05-30
I can relate

When I was new I felt as you do. What I was missing is the spiritual experience as a result of the steps. It's our experience that real alcoholics rarely permanently recover without addressing the alcoholics spiritual malady. Your doctor was partly correct. Alcoholism is a 3 fold disease. Mental - mental obsession,while sober awhile we think it's ok to drink. Physical - once we drink we can't control how much we drink. And spiritual - the real alcoholic, left to his own devices doesn't feel right in his own skin. When the spiritual malady is repaired through working the 12 steps, we straighten out mentally and physically. That's why every good AA focuses on the spiritual program of action. Without those steps, AA would be just another rotary club.
like I said, I relate with you. After my last drink while going about this my way, I finally began working the steps as an experiment. That was 9/13/1992

AA has been great so far-thanks

Don’t know if people share positive experiences on this site but, I would like to share mine.
I’m a loner and don’t like being around people in AA meetings. I sense underneath all the laughter is anger and sadness. It bothers me. I know everyone is trying to change but, its difficult being around alcoholics with repressed mental conditions. I like the “Living Sober” book and the “This is AA” pamphlet. I read those at home. My sponsor also gave me the “Sponsorship” pamphlet. The big book at this time is too bizarre for my tastes. I call my sponsor once a week. He encourages me to do what’s best for me and to forget about what everyone else is doing. When we talk he asks me about my week and how I’m feeling. He doesn’t care if I pray or read the big book. He’s concerned more with what’s going on at work, at home and with relevant things like my feelings or what am I doing to change today. AA is great for me in that way. I found a sponsor who I can connect with and so far he’s instilled in me valuable insight to addiction and recovery in addition to my responsibilities for living sober one day at a time. I like the fact he has boundaries. I don’t know where he lives or where he works. He doesn’t get involved with AA politics and I’ve never heard him say anything negative about AA. About the only thing I know is that he is Christian and gay which I found odd at first but, not once has he mentioned God, religion or his lifestyle. My sponsor never preaches to me. He talks more humanistic stuff and I feel safe with him. He reinforces the idea I’ve heard before that the only person who can keep me sober is me and that I am responsible to find the things I need to learn to stay sober. Our talks are about what’s in my brain. He doesn’t pressure me to attend meetings but, told me to keep an open mind because one day I might want to try them out again. So far AA has been great for my recovery and I wanted to share it with people. Because I feel uncomfortable at meetings, he mentioned this site as a way of telling others my experience. So thanks

AA Great

Welcome. Glad you are here. AA started with one alcoholic sharing with another alcoholic. They had no big book, no meetings, no conference approved literature, no conferences or conventions. All they had was their shared disease, desperation and hope.

Re: AA has been great so far-thanks

It's nice to hear that you are doing so well. As you consider whether or not to go to meetings, you might consider that it's a way not to help yourself (since you are doing well with your sponsor) but to help others.

The power of AA hidden where it was least suspected to be

I quickly discovered that it wasn’t easy having a devout faith at mainstream meetings because members openly made jabs at organized religion. A friend told me about an agnostic meeting which I thought was a peculiar recommendation but, he said it was the most tolerant and understanding group in the area.
I soon found that to be a wise suggestion. The chairperson reminded us to respect others beliefs or non-beliefs and when articulating our message we were asked to do so from our own experience with consideration that others might not share our point of view. Essentially, don’t preach and tell others what to believe in or do. Members openly talked about what they felt and what helped them without catcalls, jeers and taunts. No one got bent out of shape if there was a casual mention of drugs, medications, God, anarchy, or ideas taken from therapists or humanist philosophies. I found a place where true fellowship existed without the supercilious stands of the self-righteous. Everyone was accepted and valued no matter what their take on living sober in the modern world was held to be. Today, I’ve moved away and there is not an agnostic meeting in the area. I do not have the time to start one with family and work responsibilities. I have a strong foundation today thanks to that group and am less sensitive to the religious critics at the meetings I attend. Sometimes the true power of AA is hidden where you least suspect it to be found.

right wing in AA

They are using aa, for punshing others that don't share thier believes! The right extremist! They love thier own! And would bully others thur manipulation! And being unfair! Only thier right wing buddies are right! Everbody else should die! To them and thier ego! Very sick people western md.

RE-Wings and Things

This old saying is true, “Whenever you make an enemy, you become the enemy.” If you are an alcoholic then you have a disease. Therefore you need treatment for this medical condition. Yes, it’s true a few alcoholics spontaneous quit drinking without treatment but, I wasn’t able to do that. AA was and is the one treatment option that works for me. Many alcoholics couple their meetings with other outside supports, such as, church, medications, and therapy. It doesn’t matter if you are Mr. Popular in your group or the guy that no one talks to. You need to stay sober. Try and remember you are in a room full of sick people. It’s often said that recovery is about change. For the majority in the rooms talking about change is more important than living the change. When people don’t have anything valuable to offer they get tackled down with wings, sports teams, celebrities in recovery, hunting, etc. You want more than that and perhaps that is behind your anger. When I was new in AA, I was voted “Most Likely to Relapse and Die Drunk” by a group of snobs who called themselves the “Winners.” Every one of those so called “Winners” eventually relapsed. Gradually they disappeared and a few had died. I’m still here after 30 years. Alcoholism is serious business; if you truly understand that then you will stay sober. Understanding Step One will lead to a better life even if you don’t see eye to eye with the other rungs.

Joined: 2014-09-11
right wing AA

All you need to start a new meeting is a Big Book, a coffee pot, and a resentment. That’s how many get going. Give it a shot. It’ll help you stay sober. Certain people with a few years have a tendency to put their personality above the principles. The 2nd Tradition tells us who is in charge. Best of luck.

First Step or not? that is the question

I am powerless over those Right Wingers, and no matter how hard I try I can't seem to accept that they live here too. Damn, guess I'll get a drink

Leave the Wings at the Door

Right wing, left wing, no wing, extremists, conservatives, bigots, weirdoes all exist in pretty much every society and idealistically we would like them to not exist in AA. It’s the nature the beast. Eventually adherents to these philosophies or mindsets become alcoholics and enter the Fellowship. The Preamble clearly states what AA’s position is on these social types and that is it is not allied with them. When members cling to their politic it fractures AA and the AA group will become ego-serving. Unfortunately, the true essence and power of the Preamble is seldom understood. The healthier members embrace the Preamble and become open-minded and productive AA members. The others, well your meeting appears to be full of them. One thing AA offers is a sense of belonging. I live in Maryland. I know exactly what you are talking about. Move to Baltimore or DC and AA will be different. If you can’t move just remember recovery is the heart and not in a box with a coffee pot full of close minded individuals whose bigotries are their baby bottles. Maturity is a good thing to strive for in AA however, very few of us think that way. Perhaps this is a learning opportunity for you. There is a possibility that you are just as close minded as the others but with an opposite position and the ones you speak of are merely acting as mirrors. If you can understand this your recovery will reach a higher level. One last thing, do not lose focus. No matter what the shape and size of your group is; if you are an alcoholic then it is important to not pick up the first drink or seek excuses to lead you to that drink. We must be available for the newcomer. Thanks and remember eventually someone will enter your group one day and will observe the same things you are writing about. This person will need your support and wisdom.

Joined: 2012-05-30
re anonymous

you sound a little sick yourself. how does an AA punish another, bully, manupulate, be unfair, and so forth?

go to a different group, or better yet, start a group more to your liking. groups are built on 12 step work. those AAs that don't do twelve step work are stuck going to meetings with formats that someone else felt was right.

the 1st week i was in AA, my sponsor told me there are no victims in AA, just volunteers. let's stop being volunteers to misery of our own making and start taking responsibility for our own recovery, ideas, emotions, and attitudes.

re to anonymous "How does ..."

You commented, “You sound a little sick yourself. How does an AA punish another, bully, manipulate, be unfair, and so forth?” What a bunch of baloney. Your post indicates that you may be an example of one of the members he is talking about. Are we in such a high and mighty place that we can call another sick? That’s why everyone is here. We all suffer from the disease of alcoholism. Where is your compassion and strength to offer that guy? That’s the kind of condescending attitude that turns people away. To answer your question, “There are many forms of shaming and bullying in the rooms carried out via dogmatism and crassness and to me, these are the tools of the complacent path, which always lead to a spiritual barrenness.” From a new persons perspective his post was quite a normal and healthy thing to say. He is being honest with his feelings and that is a positive start. Your comment is a bit dishonest. Hiding behind clichés and poser toughness only serves egos and not the newcomer. I applaud that man for sharing his insights. When someone reaches out for help we are responsible to be there. “Condescension” is not a being there tool.

Slip or not?

SLIP- Sobriety-Looses-It's-Priority

Just my own experience....If it was a half a glass, a full glass or 10 glasses, I picked up the drink long time for I actually did. Some piece of my AA puzzle (life) was missing. Most of the time I wasn't being honest and convinced myself I wasn't an alcoholic. I have never been the kind of alcoholic that went somewhere and i "just" picked up the drink and asked myself "how did that happen?" And if I found myself posting a question on here like that, I am looking for someone to co-sign my crap.

Suggestion.....call your sponsor and please if you don't have one it would be best if you get to some meetings and seek some recovery. That is a very slippery place to be.

Joined: 2014-03-22

I m tired of the AA police.

Most of the time? Honest?

I picked up again because I Honestly didn't believe that I was an alcoholic, even though I was spouting the words; Hi, I'm Tom and I'm an alcoholic. I didn't understand that for me, powerless was a mental twist that would cause me to make the wrong decision at just the right time. I couldn't be honest with myself. I should have called someone?

Collapse Fear

From a recent post a member shared, “We almost collapsed in 1992/1993.” I would take that as you feel AA had a Golden Age once which connected well with a specific culture of believers, but has devolved in some way? Do you feel although we served a purpose and did a tremendous amount of good, inevitably we have failed to connect with the current cultural mindsets of the majority of alcoholics entering the rooms today? It’s true the originators were men from a different era whose philosophies and imaginations were influenced by the manufacturers of social types and philosophies of their time. Society has changed since the early days and the scientific community has brought about new revelations in addiction biochemistry but the philosophy behind AA is solid. I believe it’s the political infighting within groups harming the image of AA and not the integrity of the people that serve the various positions in AA who I admire and respect very much. From my observations, it’s the way we conduct our meetings and our self-righteous behaviors that has to change. When groups try to control the pulpit and over-structure the AA meeting while dictating to newcomer’s rigid formulas and threats of relapse we fail Bill and Bob. An AA group ought to provide HOPE and not threats. Our group decided to take down the banners and slogans and we do not celebrate anniversaries because we feel all of this makes us look cultist and the newcomer entering the rooms already thinks we are so why reinforce their misconceptions. We simply open the discussion meeting with a few things. We read the Preamble and then give the mention to silence the cell phones. We ask people to share their experience, strength, and hope as it applies to the topic. For example, relapse, withdrawal, love, unselfishness and tolerance are all topics which have been brought up recently. The chairperson is responsible for the topic relevant to their week. We do have a literature and book table with all the important information available. We are certainly grateful for the old way but, reading books and literature can be done at home if one desires to read and study. Finally, let’s say your fear comes true and AA collapses. Do you think members will start drinking again all of a sudden? No, we will regroup and rebuild because the founders initially laid down a pretty strong foundation for us.

Joined: 2014-09-11

Though the word is not printed in the Twelve Traditions, if you look them over carefully you will realize that practicing the principle of the Traditions practically forces one to be more humble. Humility is the word I find carefully woven into each of the Traditions. Many old timers (which I am) don’t care to discuss the Traditions because is forces them/us to move over and let others who are newer take over. The 11th Concept mentions rotation of leadership. Some egos don’t want to let go and move over.

collapse fear

I get what you are saying I just don't understand why not have an anniversary party or a speaker for founders day, our group enjoys such celebrations and so do the newcomers they love to be a part of it, and if they don't they don't have to participate or show up!

Fear of collapse

Read with interest your comment and appreciate faith in the principles established. I am forever grateful for the experiece hope and strength many passed on to me that saved my life. We all have different ideas I think that's why Dr Bob and Wilson left of a phrase that love and tolerance is our code. And it is not easy to practice but I have to if I want to pass on what I freely received.

Joined: 2014-09-05

6 and one-half years sober…then I went on a cruise this summer and had 1/2 glass of champagne….according to AA: Do I really have to start over counting?

r u kidding

Taking just a sip is a slip - this id ssomething to be discussed with your sponsor


That's up to you. I think sobriety is about staying sober "one day at a time" regardless of how long you've been sober. Maybe you got the non-alcohol type champagne if you stopped at half a glass -Ha! You didn't say if you suddenly felt a greater craving for alcohol after the 1/2 glass, maybe your higher power saved you from yourself. I know that I need to stay away from a sip because I think I would continue sipping until I was chugging. I've had flaming greek cheese in early sobriety that had a fair amount of alcohol on top that had not burned off and as soon as I ate the cheese a flash came through my mind to go out to the bar and order a Heineken. I went into the bathroom and asked my higher power for help and did not go back out. God Bless


yes its an honest program, but you know you had 6 years under your belt, use it to your advantage, like in your story you can help others not to go down that same road or not to beat themselves up when they slip I think you can do good things with that!

Joined: 2014-09-11
Yep. Do you really want to go there? It's a game we've played

before getting sober. Dishonesty will kick our butts. You ain't the only one.

That's a question for you to

That's a question for you to answer... I think by you asking the question, you know the answer...

Joined: 2014-03-31

As an alcoholic, I know that alcohol is poison to me. I may as well drink Drano.The sanity that was returned to me in the steps of AA was the ability to see very clearly the relationship between my hand and the hot stove and to not think this time I won't get burned. What would concern me greatly is to find that I'd lost that level of sanity and thought I could safely take a drink. That would open a pandora's box of horrors for me.

As for counting. That would be between me and my wife, my sponsor, my close AA friends, my home group and, most importantly,my self and my Higher Power. I have accidentally taken a sip of the wrong drink. My immediate instinct is to spit it out which I do as quickly and discreetly as possible. No reset there. Knowingly drinking alcohol would be a break in my sobriety and I would consider myself in serious danger.

Hang in there and keep coming back. All any of us really have is today and today is good if I can be open and honest with myself, my fellows & my HP.


AA Is a program of honesty. It is based on what you feel in your heart. You never lose the sober time that you have earned in AA. You have received tools to live a sober life. You have received the knowledge from the rooms of AA. Move on with your sober life and the Spiritual foundation that you have earned and don't worry about the petty misshaps of a single moment. God Bless Stay Safe and learn from your experence.
Love and Service Ron M. 24 years.


My first sponsor said "You slip on a bannana peel" I will share with you that I had 25+ years of "sobriety" but was using and abusing perscription drugs of the opiate nature (vicodin,oxycontin and the like which are now discribed as synthetic heroin). I changed my sobriety date to coincide with my stopage of taking these drugs, and now have 13+ years(clean & Sober). I believe that what I really have is today, and that's what counts. I can't and won't give you advice, but you can figure it out if you are truley honest with yourself....


Joined: 2013-11-26

Hi Anonymous,

Thank you for sharing that. I too, have been abusing prescription drugs and have had many years of sobriety. It is bad place to be in. I think I need detox to get off the drugs now. I am really afraid. I have no desire to drink, but the thought of starting over is overwhelming. I pray for the willingness to do it.

re-Mr. Slippery

You were 6.5 years sober and had to ask a question like that? It appears you were physically sober only and soliciting an answer from this site seems ridiculous to me. You relapsed long before you picked up that drink. Now that I’ve shamed you, people do relapse in AA. That’s what we do. Why the person on your left has thirty years sobriety and the person on your right has become a “wet” brain from chronic relapse no one really knows. There are theories out there in the rooms and battles to what theories are correct. My suggestion would be to see a mental health professional and get honest with them because apparently you have not been too honest with yourself as of lately although you did reach out to this site which is a wonderful start. Please, do not minimalize drinking champagne. Think, Think, Think and for what it's worth; for many years I was the “I” that God didn’t grace.

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