Burning Desire to Share
I want to thank the members who shared honestly and sincerely on numbeness. A giant weight has been lifted.
The numbness was building up inside and I started to sink like a rock. It won't go away overnight but, I've made appointments with the appropriate people. Drinking was never an option for me but, strangling the guy who cut me off in traffic was another story.
Thanks for being real and not preaching hot air. The real stuff always brings me back to reality.
I hear what you are saying but cannot identify. I was told in 1992 to join a home group and get a job in that group, get a sponsor who has worked the steps, that attends that home group,and take the steps with that sponsor out of the big book.
I have been usning that formula for a happy and contented sobriety ever since. And yes I have had many ups and downs in my life, everyone does. the difference today is they don't happen to me, they happen to everyone.
WOW...you really touched my heart...I feel for you. I had 10 years and 8 months sober and felt about the same way then I stopped going to meetings and then one 4th of July I drank again. That was in 2007. Now it's 2013 and I am desperate to get what I had back. I think I stopped being grateful for AA and I really didn't know how wonderful my sober life was. I will do anything to get it again and keep it. Thank you for sharing. K
This is my experience. I felt numbness many times and found just praying and working the steps wasn't doing it for me. The initial rush of hope in my early recovery years waned fast and I realized the founders didn't have much experience after that. The Big Book provided a band-aid ray of hope but, I came to understand it was more of a beginner’s manual. Seventy years later we know more about addiction and brain disorders then the founders could have imagined. I’m not taking anything away from them and their noble acts, but the facts are the facts. My recovery was not blessed by angels. Even though I was not putting alcohol into my body and working the steps and praying regularly, I had that numbness too you talk about. I couldn’t care about anybody or anything. I discovered the numbing agents behind my glum. I was still jacking my brain up with caffeine, nicotine and sugar. When I finally quit smoking and reduced caffeine intake to one cup of tea while eliminating sugar completely, I tail-spun into the deepest depression imaginable. At first I thought, “This too shall pass” But it didn’t. I sat through business meetings and AA meetings and felt like a zombie. My face was tight and I started to be consumed by hatred. After my first five years of misery I sought professional help. This lowered my status with the old-timers but, I wanted to experience the joys of sobriety. As so many others have discovered in AA, I also had an underlying mental disorder which was not being relieved by prayers and good intentions. I can’t tell you how many times I swept the floors and made coffee waiting for the miracle to happen. In my case, I couldn’t wait around anymore. I got profession help. Initially, I took medication for my illness. A few years after that, I discontinued the meds and found other alternatives. Today, I have a true joy in recovery and that new freedom promised. One last thing, I too felt numbness when my father died years ago, but today thanks to receiving the proper care, I am still grieving the loss of my mother who passed last year.
Wow! Thank you so much. Its always reassuring to know there are many members with similar sobriety stories. Not all members can relate to what you may have said but, I do. About my fifth year in, I was ready to jump off the Rio Grande Gorge Bridge. Its an easy jump as jumps go, the height of the rails are about 4 feet and the drop about 600 feet. I was going to 4-5 meetings a week. I prayed in the morning and at night. I worked the steps and was a good husband and father but, one day something came over me. I drove to the bridge, walked to the center and meditated before the leap. Just then, a biker drove by and screamed "Its a permanent solution to a temporary problem brother" and disappeared. I was startled out of my funk and returned to earth. I've heard that many times in AA and thought about my wife and kids. I ran off that bridge and drove home hugging them as I rushed in the house. When that man yelled, something clicked in me "I need to see a doctor" It's been a few years after treatment and there is a new joy and happiness again in my life. With the proper care I am experiencing the promises today in AA. One day I hope I cross paths with that biker to thank him for saving my life.
Mannie, New Mexico
My heart is with you and your family. My parents passed on of natural cause in sobriety as words could not touch its reality , I sat quietly in a meeting not wanting to talk to anyone nor be told anything as I need to be around my kind as I heard the music around the people instead of a sorry. In time I picked up my head for my parents thanking them for doing the best they could – Time was the only healer and I am glad I had a place to go to and hear the music. If a wish could help consider it done, hang in there my friend.
A weird thing I realized growing up my parents never said good by they always said SEE YA.
Try reading page 52. I truly believe this is the only thing our program can really help with
I fit your general description of yourself, male, long sobriety, lost both elderly parents in the last six years and I have certainly felt everything you are feeling. In my experience there is no “right” way to feel grief. In fact there is no “right” way to feel anything. Akin to “I can’t think my way to good living but I can live my way to good thinking”. What I DO will result in the best outcome despite what I think or feel. There is usually levity during grief. Experts likely have a reason. I just know that there is and it seems normal. When we’ve just been close to the big one (life and death) people sharing complaints of cats that won’t behave do tend to fade by comparison. In some cultures, haven’t we seen that mourning is officially required to last a year? All black and all that? Excessive by my standards but Dr Tebot nailed us with his description of self centered, impatient, and a low tolerance of frustration. Any time I feel dis-ease, I can quickly trace it to one of those. I can’t click my red shoes together three times and make it disappear but I know it is my alcoholism doing the thinking for me and as long as I do the next right think it will go away. I bet it will for you too.
Dear Numb, I know how you feel; I've felt the same and wondered if I was a pyschopath. In you, I recognize patterns I too have had, prior to a relapse. When I set myself as different, and are unable to relate to others in the program, I am headed down a precarious path. I must force myself to relate to my other alcoholics, or I will get drunk. For me to get back on the path, when I can't stand the thought of relating to others, I have to pray. And I pray, not because I believe it will work (because deep down I don't), but rather I pray because doing so makes me feel better. Maybe just a self-imposed time out is what I need. Talk to a sponser, pray, try to do a good deed, go to another meeting, and most important don't drink, even when your brain tells you it will be different this time: it won't be, that's just your arrogance and ego lying to you. Good luck.
Pray for a mini miracle; pray for any sign that you are connected with a higher power, the miracle may come in time or it may arise suddenly. It will show you the way.
Our Annual General Service Conference will take place next week. Bern Smith's "why do we need a
conference" will be read. When Bern Smith gave that talk, much of alcoholic population may not have
heard of Alcoholics Anonymous. That is simply not true today. Practically everyone in the world
has heard of A.A. Is a conference still necessary? I think yes. I believe this conference to be
even more important than past conferences. Our area representatives (delegates) have a vital
decision to make regarding our tradition of self support. We are further away from obedience to
Tradition Seven than we have ever been. We have always had a goal of being self-supporting at all
levels. Group and individual contributions are to be our only source of income. Todays GSB has
added profits from our book and literature business as a legitimate source of income. The
"In 1986" paragraph has been removed from the current service manual. Page S74 in the 2009-2010 manual.
I am deeply concerned that this is one step closer to accepting contributions from all sources. Most
of todays A.A. members do not understand the value of Tradition Seven. And this ignorance will not
cause any immediate danger. The danger is to future generations. Future generations of suffering
alcoholics will pay dearly for our mistakes.
To shorten this message I will give three reasons for our policy of poverty. To prevent any
interference with our affairs. Selling books and literature at the cost of printing makes information
about our fellowship affordable to everyone. We want the general public to look at our fellowship
favorably. They say "The irresponsible have become responsible". These alcoholics insist on paying
their own expenses out of their own pockets. They won't even take outside money when it is offered.
In the 12 & 12 Bill wrote that many members wanted to "take that ten thousand dollars" Let's take
it and take all donations in the future. "The groups may never send enough to support our Headquarters".
Tradition Seven came out of that discussion. Today we don't even talk about it. The future of our
precious fellowship is in the hands of our General Service Conference. It is still needed even if
it does cost close to two million dollars for the week. A.A.'s future is in your hands. ANONYMOUS
Note: If we sell books and literature without profit, new and unecessary material will not be published.
We do not want to print new material just to make money.
I attended a regional forum in about 1980 in Kansas City. Much talk about literature sales supporting AA. Same concern you are expressing today. I haven’t seen one iota of evidence that any outsiders “contributing” by purchasing AA literature have had any influence on its content. Have you?
I accept that it is an important concept; I don’t want outsiders influencing our organization either. I just don’t see that anybody outside of AA has much interest in our literature and the few that do certainly haven’t attacked like corporate takeover raiders.
"I accept that it is an important concept"? It is not a
concept. It is our Tradition Seven that I am writing
about. We have twelve steps, twelve traditions and twelve
concepts. The traditions and concepts are more important
than the steps. The steps are suggestions. But if we
continue to ignore the traditions and concepts, our
recovery fellowship is in danger of collapse.
We have been selling about a million books a year
for the past few years. The price of a Big Book contains
considerable profit. An individual who wants to donate
an excessive amount to A.A. could just buy, say a thousand
books, and just give them away or burn them.
You really have to fully understand the history of
our tradition of self-support. I believe that most A.A.
members today could care less where the money comes from,
to run our headquarters, as long as it is out of someone
We need to sell Books and Literature at the cost of
printing, and fully fund operations from group and member's
donations. It is nearly impossible to alter the Tradition.
It is fairly easy to ignore it. ANONYMOUS
OK you supplied us with a rant about the poster using the word “concept” generically, which according to my dictionary, fits the idea:
A broad abstract idea or a guiding general principle, e.g. one that determines how a person or culture behaves.
Other than that, you didn’t supply anything additional to dispel the idea that the organization has stayed and is likely to stay free of outside influence because it keeps all of its money in one pocket. AA and our little budget and publishing efforts are such small peanuts, why would anyone bother trying to influence it? Wasn’t happening in 1980 and isn’t happening today unless you have some new facts you would like to share. The chief operating officer of some silly enterprise called Facebook pulled in $821 million last year. Somebody wants to buy influence? There’s somebody to target.
Worry is the interest you pay on problems you don’t even have.
I hope im doing this righ I just got a question: its truth that aa members used to go to bars to help members stay sober?
I doubt if there was ANYTHING that some members didn't do, and still do, and will continue to. On the other hand, if we want to be effective in helping others stay sober, the "how to" is spelled out in great detail in our literature, particularly the chapter "Working With Others" in the Big Book.
In my experience people go into bars to start drinking. AA is for those of us who want to stop drinking. I'm not helpful for those who don't want help.
"In my experience people go into bars to start drinking."
Normal drinkers and untreated alcoholics, yes. Alcoholics who are actually using the program and not just the fellowship, no. Read the Big Book, beginning with the last paragraph on page 100.
When I stopped drinking, I thought I needed to stop going to drinking places. Car races, ball games, class reunions. Later I found that I could, using the simple guidelines outlined in the Big Book and a couple of suggestions added by my group. When I did go, I found that they weren’t drinking places. They were car races, ball games, class reunions.
I am currently two days sober, and I am trying very hard. I plan to go to a meeting tonite and maybe tomorrow if I need to. I also have some AA materials that I read earlier that helped me stop thinking about having a beer. I said a prayer to God to help me to not want a drink. I felt better after doing some reading and I know I will feel better after a meeting. Just wanted to let it out.
Well done Amber!
Hi Amber, we're glad you reached out! I've been in the program Sinai 1993. It does get better. Go to a meeting today and tomorrow and don't drink, and everything will be just fine.
I'm Aly's dad,years ago you were all there for my daughter when she needed you. she found so much strength
in herself she went back to collage in boston and will graduate in june with her masters in psychology.
yesterday she was to meet her friends at the race,instead,she felt she had to go to a meeting. they were to meet were the first bomb went off. they saw it all,and are very upset,but thanks to you all, she will be there to help them and others.
you have helped us so much,I wanted to let you know, and say THANK YOU from my heart and soul
with all my love;
God Bless you Aly's dad, and God Bless Aly. We are so grateful that Aly is ok and able to continue to reach out with the hand of AA to those want this simple program.
Congratulations Aly on getting your Masters in Psychology, what a Powerful example you are to any alcoholic who wants to move forward in their life!
Yours in Recovery :)
I have struggled with alcohol for almost 9 years. I think it has always been a problem for me. I quit when I was 19 for almost 6 years then decided I was okay and started again. Since then I have been on and off. Quit for a while then think I'm healed and drink again. I black out when I drink. I do things I would never even think of when sober. It's like a whole other person comes out. I have been arrested, admitted to the hospital more then I can count because I try and kill myself or threaten suicide. I have ruined relationships and I have no control. All I want to do is drink but I'm so afraid of what happens when I do. Being still somewhat young (27) I feel like drinking is the only thing to do. Quitting scares me because I feel like I will never have fun again and never enjoy life. How backwards is that? I have been to 2 aa meetings before because a therapist I had set me up with someone in the group. I have since moved across the country and don't know where to go or what meeting or how to start. Any help would he appreciated.
yeah I can see why you wouldn't want to quit having all that
fun and enjoying life the way you are!
Seriously now, all you need to do is make a decision.
Are you willing to concede to your inner most self you are an alcoholic? This is the first step in recovery!
If you are not willing then nothing will change. My cousin just died from this illness. If you could have seen him the
last week you would puke. I have been trying to be his friend and offer any help I could but he told me about a year ago that he, "is just going to drink and I guess die".
I said that is exactly what is going to happen.
I lost my own son to this illness. He was 25.
If it were possible for me to give you one thing it would
be the WILLINGNESS. But it is up to you. RC
I pray that you have found a meeting and are sober today. I always call 411 and ask for Alcoholics Anonymous and a member calls me back. God be with you in your journey. K
I am 27 years old as well, and i have been sober for 14months!! It is the best accomplishment i have ever done!! I have a wonderful life! A life i have always dreamed about! When i came into AA last February i thought the same thing, my life was over, and my life was going to be so boring from here on out. That is so not true in my life! I have experienced so much pleasure and so much fun these last 14 months! I have friends in AA that actually care about me and don't just want something out of me. They want my company! AA has taught me how to love myself again and how to laugh, smile, and be ok in my own skin!! I really want to help you, and show you that there is life in sobriety! If i can stay sober for 14months you can do it too!!! Just go online and find a Meeting. Even if you feel like you don't want to go or are nervous about going for the first time. Do it! The people there will understand. Everybody in that room has been where you are now. They will love you till you know how to love yourself! Goodluck, and ill be praying for you!!
Sounds like you are about ready for the wildest, most fun ride of life, sobriety.
I sobered up at 32 and often say today, if I'd known how fun life could be without alcohol, I'd have sobered up sooner. ALL of the best and most wonderful things in life have happened for me in these past 26 years.
When I was ready, I found AA in my area, started hitting meetings, got a big book and read it,looked for folks with good sobriety (happy active members) and ask how they were doing it, found someone with good sobriety who worked the steps and asked for help working the steps, joined a home group, took a service position...Somewhere in all the above, I found my Higher Power, my humanity, other people and myself and started to become the person I was meant to be.
In larger towns today there are active YPAA groups (young people in AA)that offer lots of fun social events.
RARELY (NEVER) have we seen a person fail who has thoroughly followed our path! As the old timers said to me, If you do these things and do not find recovery, we will gladly refund your misery.
Best wishes. Enjoy the ride.
I really took heart when I read your comments. When you wrote, "I feel like drinking is the only thing to do," I thought, that's the best definition of alcoholism that I have ever heard. Alcoholism tells you that it's a good idea to drink, even when you know in your heart that it isn't. And when you wrote, "I feel like I will never have fun again and never enjoy life" without alcohol, I remember that feeling well. But here's the good news. You can leave the hell of your situation and turn it around quite quickly. I say that because of my own situation. One day I was a woman, drunk in my house, on the road to dying of alcoholism, and the next day I was in a meeting where people told me, Patty, you never have to drink again, one day at a time." And in that moment I was on the road to a life that has given me a lot of joy, and a lot of learning, a life I never dreamed of, one day at a time. I encourage you to look up the meeting schedule online for your area, and go to some meetings. Listen to what the people have to say, and talk if you want to. A women's meeting is always a nice meeting to attend too. See if you relate to anything that you hear. I tell you, when I compare my life before and what it is now, I don't even think about drinking. It's a great freedom. I was so relieved when they told me, You never have to take another drink, one day at a time. Good luck to you.
If you found this site you can easily find, online, a meeting contact near you.
Please look up AA in your local phone directory or search your city with AA using the seach enging of your choice. If none are available, go to your local library and check out the book "alcoholics Anonymous" there are directions in the appedicies to get in touch with AA. If no AA members are available, an aa member from our general service office will begin a correspondence with you.
Good luck to you and your sobriety!
My first sponsor, acting according to the principles of our group, believed that part of his job was to help keep my ego in check. He and the other members of our men's step meeting were not shy about telling me if they thought I was off the beam a bit. We affectionately called this "getting nailed". It required humility and open mindedness to listen to the feedback and decide to make changes.
One risk in this style of AA is that it can lead to ego problems of another sort;in those who are delivering the message. That is way it was always done with love. I heard my sponsor's sponsor say on many occasions, "deliver your message with love".
This type of AA is not for everyone. My sponsor and I also attended a kinder/gentler AA meeting and would invite guys to the men's group. Not too many stuck around. The success rate of the men's group was very high. I wondered for years if it was because of their tough love methods or because the membership was composed of those who had a high degree of willingness. For the past 15 years I've been a member of a more easy going but loving group. We too have a lot of long term sobriety and help many newcomers make it. Maybe the common ingredient is love.
"They piled on me heaps of evidence to the effect an alcoholic mentality..." Alcoholics Anonymous p42. Doesn't sound like they used kid gloves does it? Worked for me too. Thanks for sharing.
Our group recently moved ...to a nicer space. Our old space was on the 3rd floor of a flat roofed church and the heat in the summer was near unbearable...to the point where our membership dropped off significantly during these months.
Amazingly, the complaints over the move were fast and furious!..which only goes to lend credence to the observation that "alcoholics only hate two things....everything different....and everything the same". Lol
Now to the problem....one of our members (30yrs sober) is so upset over the move that he has taken to peeing on the bathroom floor....missing the urinal on purpose, plugging up the head with whatever he can find and flushing the lever until there is flooding. Needless to say, this activity is not making our group popular with the church elders since we share this space with numerous other church group activities. He has also been using the fire door which is clearly marked "to be used only in emergencies" and sets off an alarm causing the fire department to be called. (Sigh)
Has anyone ever had a member of their group act like this..?.and what did you do to resolve it? We have tried talking to the gentleman to no avail...and so has the pastor of the church. It has gotten to the point where we may be getting the boot and our frustration is overflowing. No one wants to act like the so called "AA police" and bar someone from what may be lifesaving meetings...so what else is there?
Laurie (frustrated in Indiana)
Dementia in older members happens. Whatever level of of control that is necessary to stop vandalism (which is what you just described) is in order. I have been in more than one group conscience meeting where the decision was to use the police if needed. Haven't seen it come to following through with that but it needs to be ironed out ahead of time.
It's tough. Good luck.
If the group has already confronted him and informed him of tradition 1 that the group comes first, next time this happens, call the police so he can get the mental help he deserves. If your group doesn't want to go that far, simply have a male menber use the facilities whenever this person is. It is possible that someone else is commiting these offenses.
Remember that the group comes first, the individual members second.
On at least two occasions the group had the church legally prohibit the offenders from being on church property.
The matter of the offender's anonymity since his behavior was definitely not that expected of an AA member, in fact is a demonstration of his contempt for both the host church, the group and AA in general.
For years it has been said 'you dont have to hit rock bottom' to come in these rooms. Thats true, but the longest lasting decent sobriety has been from those who DID hit such a bottom. I watched another member die last week because he was arrogant and self important. Another big shot who was unteachable due to a super ego. In/out for years -then dead. There is altogether too much treatment center and not enough AA in the rooms today- but dont say anything or your jumped on
I'm Mike, alcoholic.
I don't like applying the term low or high bottom to others as it is very judgemental, IMO. It took what it took for me to get here and to stay here. If I go back out and drink again I am sure I will hit a lower bottom than the last one... sooner or later!
I have heard many times we don't have to ride the garbage truck all the way to the dump. I can get off any time. The person living in a mansion with an unlimited bank account can be just as sick as the one on skid row. I always believed I couldn't be an alki because I wasn't living on skid row. The idea kept me in denial for 32 years. I truly believe skid row is more a state of mind (bankrupt mentally, spiritually and emotionally).The only thing missing for me was sleeping in back alleys,eating out of garbage cans, etc. I would have surely ended up there with a little more drinking, If I was unlucky to live so long.
I try to meditate on step 1 every day so I never forget my last drunk. When and if the obsession to dring returns I play the tape through to the end to remember what I will surely lose if I pick up again.
Thanks for my sobriety.
Not in Houston TX we tell the gult level truth work the steps on die. Or live the rest o
f your life like a rouche.
I had had the wrecks, tickets, thousands of hangovers, work problems bombed relationships like everyone else from the beginning. I walked into Alcoholics Anonymous when I was thirty years old and couldn’t break the habit of going home from work thinking I could drink a beer, turning it into at least six or eight and falling asleep in front of the TV. No family pressure, no crisis. A good inventory using the steps showed me I was as sick as anybody on skid row. The drinking is only a symptom it says somewhere. I had plenty of others.
Trying to predict a member’s success or failure based on his or her bottom (or anything else for that matter) has been a fool’s errand for me any time I tried. Alcoholics Anonymous offers a solution for anyone who wants it any time they want to stop. That’s all that’s important.
I have found quite the opposite, that many who long-term quality sobriety did not hit "rock bottom" as you suggest. On that point, I heartily agree with Dr. Jung, that some kind of "emotional rearrangement" is necessary, which for some does not require skid-row membership before being possible. If my bottom allows me to recognize that I cannot and did not get sober by myself and need help to stay sober, and I have a little bit of gratitude for my sobriety and the help I have gotten in achieving it, I think I have a pretty good chance of staying sober today, whether my bottom was low or high.
SHERRIE, ALCOHOLIC ADDICT I'LL HAVE 24 hours in 2 hours. Can't sleep. I've been in the program since 1997. Best time of my life. SO HAPPY TO BE BACK. LOST MY READING GLASSES OUT THERE DRINKING, CAN't wait untill tomorrow to go to another meeting. See you at St. Joe's It's nice to be back with my real family. Love ya, Sherrie
24 Hours is FANTASTIC. That's all we have to do. Keep lining up those 24 hours at a time. Sometimes it one moment to the next, one minute at a time. Surround yourself with AA Materials, it helped me.
Dave B. Sober Day: 8/23/12
Life as I know it is an extremely comlex work of art. Far frail from those who simply adapt and fit in there are those who ponder and question. I have been an alcoholic all my life....how I made it this far is a mystery to me. In a "perfect" world one may shed light on the "brighter" things... I however swim deeper. In "my" mind there is a far greater presence at work orchastrating. And at the end of the day all I surmise is a wanting to simply commune with like minded individuals. I have so many stories and experienes to share in due time.
I'll do my best to resist dying from alcoholism until due time arrives.
I once had a cake in an Italian restaurant and felt a bit odd. Then the people I was with told me that they add a little bit of alcohol to the cake. I got scared - esp since I had just come back from a relapse and was only 4 months into recovery. I checked with my sponsor and he said it was perfectly alright, I hadn't relapsed and I don't need to change my date of sobriety and then he also said that all that don't mean I can drink alcohol in small quantities.
You didn't willingly and knowingly take a drink. You also didn't ingest an alcoholic beverage. You're fine. Word of caution, however: check aftershave lotions, cough & cold meds, deserts, etc., as a continual diet of any of these will definately change your body chemistry, mental well-being, and increase your vulnerabiluty to relapse. If any member other than your sponsor tries to instill guilt into your psyche, tell him to 'live and let live', call his own sponsor, say the serenity prayer, work the third step, or better yet, read page 449. It's ok today, you're ok today, and you're exactly where you are supposed to be, in this moment in time, doing exactly what you're supposed to be doing...now go help someone else! http://www.aagrapevine.org/
Thanks for the comments about aftershaves. I no longer
use them, or any hand sanitizer containing alcohol. I do
not want that poison absorbed in through my skin.
But I do question the power and authority you place
in the hands of a "sponsor". His or her "best thinking
got him/her here". I question the reliability of advice
coming from any ONE A.A. member. We all have "clay feet".
God gave us a brain. I believe He expects us to use it.
"Now, go help someone else! Yes Sir!! Manny Q.
I believe the tragedy in our rooms is many members think recovery is a "One Size Fits All" experience. Just do what we say, "Read this, work that." Recovery needs to be individualized. From my experience, throughout the years, the groups that have the highest success our groups that promote diversity and open-mindedness when it comes to members discovering strategies that work for them in their recovery. Militant 12-steps groups tend to scare people away and rush others to relapse. Sobriety out of fear from group pressure is not a good strategy. The medical community has made terrific advances and have more of a compassion for the addict than many AA groups which are stuck in the last century. Are we not the experts anymore? I always remember when approaching a new person that they have an illness or brain disorder and not someone whose sins or weak morals caused their alcoholism. Their recovery needs might not be the same as Bill or Bobs. But does this mean we kick them out or mistreat them into submission until they surrender to the Big Book or 12-Steps. The hoop that Bill talked about as being big enough for everyone is shrinking to the eye of a needle. I try and remember the beauty of AA is it is a diverse fellowship of its members and not a "One Size Fits All" program of fundamentalist clones.