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Each issue of the Grapevine magazine includes a suggested discussion topic. Please share your thoughts here.

Joe_C
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More from Agnostics & Atheists

November 6 to 8 will be the first We Agnostics and Freethinkers International Conference of AA in Santa Monica. The World Directory of AA groups for atheists and agnostics is very small compared the AA as a whole but from 2010 to 2014 we saw a jump from under 100 to nearly 200 agnostic/atheist AA groups.

Atheist and agnostic are a growing population in and out of the rooms - especially among young people. In the early days this was seen as an intellectual hold out by many members or a sign of a closed mind. But when we open our eyes we see a wealth of AA success stories of people who don't believe in a prayer answering, sobriety granting higher power. Some of our members are sober two, three and four decades and either never believed in an intervening God and made AA work for themselves. Others (in their particular spiritual journey) outgrew their belief in a traditional supernatural force that is such a popular worldview among AAs. So let's hear from today's atheists. Yes I am one but I don't like that word. I don't spend my day identifying myself with the things I don't believe in. I don't believe in horoscopes either but I don't identify as a-horiscopal, I just go about my live without checking what a Virgo (or Rat on the Chinese Horoscope) should do, today.

I am fairly unabashed about my secular approach to AA life. There is lots to keep me busy in AA without praying and waiting. I am especially hopeful that if a call goes out to nonbelievers to tell their stories, that closet-atheist/agnostics will find the courage to tell their story, candidly. Some members get rather fundamental on newer members that confess they have doubt about any God that intervenes in our lives. I think a number of members keep their real feelings to themselves, fearing they'll be proselytized to or dismissed as exercising half-measures.

I know Dr. Bob says he feels sorry for me because I am an atheist. But how old was AA then. If he knew me he wouldn't feel sorry for me. He wouldn't see me any less or more than any other member. He didn't have any fellow AAs 30 and 40 years sober who are happy, joyous and (God)free. I know there is talk of maybe collecting the history of atheist/agnostic Grapevine articles for one book; before we do that, let's get a fresh crop. Today's nonbeliever come by many labels - humanist, Buddhist, Taoist, secular AA member, Zen-AA, apatheist, freethinker, Deist, realists, skeptics, doubters and Pantheist. Believers are invited to use their imagination to create or conceive anything that works. Well non-believers come is a wide variety today too.

Unbelievers are on the rise, especially with young people. A new Grapevine magazine by and for our non-believing population would offer all readers an eye-opening invitation into the life of our members inner-powers, higher purposes and various secular applications of the Steps and/or AA way of life.

Thanks for your consideration.

Anonymous
Why call agnostic or atheist groups AA when it’s not?

Personally, I have no problem with atheist groups, however I do have a problem with atheist groups insisting on calling themselves AA groups.
First lets look at AA’s 12 steps. Steps 2,3,5,6,7,11, and 12 directly refer to God as we understand him or spirituality. The suggested directions for working steps 3,4,5,6,7,8,9,10,11, and 12 have a prayer or multiple prayers that go along with each step. Look for yourself. There is only 1 step that doesn’t refer to God or have a prayer in the step and that is step 1(at least in the big book). How can a group of people call themselves an AA group if they only practice 1 out of 12 steps? How long will a group last if they are not working the steps? In the pamphlet “the aa group” it is written that the sole purpose of an aa group is the teaching and practicing of AA’s 12 steps.
Now, let’s look at AA’s 12 traditions. Tradition 1 talks of our unity and how our common welfare comes 1st followed by individual welfare. I think our unity in AA comes first from us all being at least alcoholic and second from us having a common answer to alcoholism. That common answer is our spiritual program of action.
Tradition 2 refers to God in our group conscience. Now how can an atheist group have a loving God in there group consciences
Tradition 4 has to do with group autonomy and that each group is autonomous except in matters affecting other groups or AA as a whole. Now let’s say you have a group of people calling themselves an AA group that doesn’t have a program of action for sobriety. I come to your group, you have no answer, I die. Now that I am dead, my family says AA doesn’t work because a group on non step working people where advertised as AA.
Tradition 5 – how could this group have a primary purpose of carrying it’s message if it doesn’t have a message? Aside from not working steps and half the traditions, what is the message?
Tradition 10 long form says no AA group or member should ever, is such a way as to implicate AA, express any opinion on outside issues, particularly politics, alcohol reform, or sectarian religion. The AA groups oppose no one. Concerning such matters they can express no views whatever. How can an atheist AA group have no opinion on sectarian religion when it has atheist in its name?
Tradition 12 long form talks of anonymity of having an immense spiritual significance and that we shall forever live in thank full contemplation of Him who presides over us all. Now how do you that if there is no God in the group?
So there it is…. An atheist AA group (if there can be such a thing) cannot practice steps 2,3,4,5,6,7,8,9,10,11, and 12 or traditions 1,2,4,5,10, and 12.
Why insist on being called an AA group? Why not call yourselves something completely unrelated to AA and see how that works ?
Lastly, how could an AA group last working 1 of 12 steps and half the traditions? I could see an individual doing that once in awhile while being around others that were working the steps and traditions, but not a whole group. If that formula really worked there wouldn’t be 100 atheist groups out of 115,358 AA groups. there would be more than 0.08% atheist groups right?
Again, why insist on being called an AA group? Really, why call it AA when it is a fraction of what an AA group is.

Anonymous
Why call agnostic or atheist groups aa when they're not??

First- the only thing required of someone seeking help through AA is the desire to stop drinking. AA does not recognize race, creed, or religious affiliations. True- believing in a higher power is part of the steps to success in AA. The big book clearly states that the higher power can be ANY higher power that you see fit. It also states that when referencing "God" they are referring to "God as you know him" or "whatever you choose your higher power to be". Even the suggestion that atheist or agnostics should be in a seperate group from AA clearly shows that you haven't paid any attention to the teachings of AA. It does NOT say- have a desire to quit drinking and believe in the same god as everyone else. It also doesn't say anything about segregating groups of people for their beliefs. It does however teach tolerance and acceptance of everyone who enters seeking help or guidance with their illness. Perhaps, since you are so informed of how AA "should" work, you should reevaluate your personal inventory and your amends list, and see if your inability for acceptance of others is our (atheists and agnostics) fault, or if it was your own insecurity that lead you to make such statements. I can say im glad that the several groups i go to have not passed judgement on me and welcomed me with open arms. Holding true to the values that AA teaches.

I will pray for you to my higher power, and I wish you good luck on your serenity and sobriety.

Anonymous
depression/mental illness

with the death of Robin Williams looking for anything on this subject

Anonymous
9th Step

Hi I am seeking different points of views because my sponsor has gone back and forth how to handle my restitutions to stores that I stole from while I was out there drinking and living that lifestyle. What I am thinking about doing is calling the various stores managers and saying hi this is ... I am in a 12 step program and I have taken from your store over 2 years ago I have no idea on that dollar amount I took. How can I make it right?? But quite frankly I feel like they'd say wtf is this girl calling and wouldn't have me pay them back especially since I dk how much I stole money wise. I just want to be as through as possible and willing to go to any length. I plan on paying back my resititions to major chain stores I stole from to a child in need by sponsoring them every month financially. Do I just not call the stores and make restitutions as I have planned? I do not want to get in trouble by calling the store managers but want to see what other people have done in my position.
Thanks! -T

Anonymous
9th step

T,
I haven't gotten to making my amends yet, but I have worked in several places and dealt with recovering alcoholics. In the cases that i dealt with where the dollar amount was unknown or the items stolen were unknown. Since the store likely has no record of your accounts there, and probably no evidence of the crime- I would ask for a member of management and explain your situation. Let them know that you are working the AA program, and would like to make restitution for your past wrong doings. If the manager has a suggestion of a way to make things right, then you have your amends. If the manager has no suggestion- then ask about doing some volunteer work (free labor for a few hours, some cleaning, bathroom scrubbing, etc. ). If there still is nothing they will let you do, then find peace in the fact that you tried. Not all amends will be made. But your higher power will recognize the effort and you will know you did what you could. I hope this helps. Good Luck with your amends, and stay strong with your sobriety!!

PS- it might help a little more if you go there in person instead of calling them to make amends.

P64A35
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Joined: 2014-05-19
Restitution

Het T...one of the sadest things today is that people skimp on this step...I admire your effort and thoroughness. I myself called a company that i had worked for and take some tools...I told them what I had done and about what the amout was. They told me that while they appreciate my hoesty they had isurance that covered their losses and that i should find a place to donate to that would benefit society and cotinue with my changed attitude. What a blessing just to follow thru...God luck and God bless...Jake

Anonymous
restitution

as a teenager I was cleptomanic 2 the 9th, degree. I could never B able 2 find then so I dicided 2 put extra few $ in2 the basket uestntil I felt I had done my best in restitution.

spanke"G" driftwood club, Melbourne, fla.

Anonymous
spelling

I apologize 4 the misspelled words i used in my last message. i should go by the rule used by the carpenter. measure twice , cut once ! i do the same with e-mails but i am trying 2 change it.

Spanke"G" of the Driftwood club. Melbourne, Fla.
32901

PS.God Bless A.A.

clu1992
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Joined: 2012-05-30
re 9th step

I followed the directions for amends in the big book pages 76-84, particularly the first paragraph of page 80.

I went to the store in person, asked for the manager. Told them what I had done and why I needed to make direct amends. We estimated an amount and I paid it. I can still hear my sponsor saying "if your smart enough to steal a million dollars, you are smart enough to pay back a million.

Anonymous
introduction

mine is "hi, i'm Joe and a child of God, with a problem with alcohol." Would that be accepted? It is the truth. I am first and foremost a child of God. To identify myself as an alcoholic does not fit my beliefs as to who I am.

Joe

Anonymous
I'm an Alcoholic

Joe, It helped me to understand exactly what I mean when I introduce myself as an alcoholic. I gained a thorough knowledge of the disease in rehab and through reading the BB, listening at meetings and through other study. Gaining a thorough knowledge of the disease took the shame out of it for me. By participating in AA, I am doing what I need to do to deal with this disease.

noduis
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Joined: 2013-09-05
Re: introduction

Yeah, I understand, Joe. I refused to believe I was an alcoholic, much less admit it. It was okay to be a drunk, but not an alcoholic, they had to go to all those meetings. And as long as I wasn't an alcoholic I could go on drinking.

Anonymous
Identifying yourself as an alcoholic doesn't fit your beliefs

Well Joe, I understand how truly frightening it is to say "I am an alcoholic". But unless you can say those words, you haven't accepted it completely. History has shown repeatedly that those who reserve a part of their old identity can not giving in completely to the new ideas and concepts that they can learn by regular attendance to AA mtgs and by working the 12 steps and reading and studying the Big Book, and they don't heal enough to stop their disease process.
The first paragraph on page 58 of the Big Book says "Rarely have we seen a person fail who has thoroughly followed our path." History has proven again and again that those who tried to heal were unable to do so until they let go absolutely. I was so certain that alcohol was ending my life, that I finally did let go completely. I was drowning in denial, which created an ocean between my much needed evolution into a recovering alcoholic who can cope with life without using alcohol, a person who thinks and responds using a clear "12 Stepped" mind, a new better, healthier way to think, followed by new and wonderful rewards of peace and honesty. I would beg you to change your beliefs, Joe. You're on this site. You have a problem with alcohol. Believe it (most other people you know likely already know the truth), you are an alcoholic, and when you can believe that, you can be helped to a place of wellness that other recovering alcoholics never dreamed possible, but do in fact live. You won't be alone. Recovering alcoholics are wonderful people. Best wishes to you.

Anonymous
RE: introduction

My name is Joe and I am an alcoholic: That is a simple
statement. It was never meant to be a greeting, salutation
or an introduction. It is part of the first step, admitting
that I am an alcoholic. It is also part of step five,
admitting it to other human beings. It became a greeting
when members started chanting "Hi! Joe! around 1980 in
my area. IMO, it makes us look stupid in the public eye.
We join in unity or we die alone. I fear that you are
trying to be unique. "hi, I'm Joe and a child of God, with
a problem with alcohol", will be useful to identify you.
Oh, you know, the guy who identified himself as a
child of God with a problem with alcohol.
Keep it simple: My name is Joe and I am an alcoholic.
(just like everyone else). ANONYMOUS

Thersites
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crosstalk

Not that anyone asked, but in my opinion if there weren't an informal discouragement of crosstalk, what we'd end up with would be the sober (or abstinent) equivalent of a barroom brawl. There can be as many personalities or points of view at any AA meeting as there are people present.

"Live and let live" and "Easy does it" can be hard precepts to live by. Well, whatever way people have of staying sober and of not hurting others, whether it's in AA or even outside AA, is fine with me. It's not as if there weren't already enough pain in this world as it is!

Anonymous
March cover

The new issue looks great! And I love the link to AAGV's 70th Anniversary. Thank you

Anonymous
Court Ordered-Sept. 13,2013

The writer thought signing court slips offended the 6th tradition by endorsing the AA name to an outside enterprise. That this practice erodes the AA's " essential structure." I disagree. We are not giving an endorsement saying these members should be judged one way or the other by signing their sheets. What we are doing is saying they were here, at this meeting, period. The show of support we give to the members themselves by doing this may be the only positive recognition they get for coming and may bring them back. Aren't we required to reach out the hand of AA whenever we are called upon to further the sick one's recovery? In this day & age, we should be overjoyed they are reaching out & give them the non judgemental hand of AA support. Signing court sheets is a very personal way to do that & maybe the only chance we get.

Sincerely, Sue B. GR,MI

Anonymous
Court Ordered-Sept. 13,2013

I agree with you Sue. In this day and age anything we can do to reach the still suffering alcoholic, is the right thing to do. We don't stand out side of bars and take names, nor do we drag folks off their bar stools. However, if such people are referred by the courts because of their demonstrated behavior, to AA or our sister fellowship, we should sign the slip, smile, and say "Keep Coming Back".

Anonymous
signing court orderd papers.

I encountered a leader of a meeting how also refused 2 sign a paper 4 someone who was court ordered 2 attend meetings saying it was not AA related. I disagree adamantly. when I sign a paper I tell them 2 come back even when they do not have 2 & 2 try & get as much out of it as they can.

spanke"G" driftwood club. Melbourne, fla.

Anonymous
RE: Court Ordered-Sept. 13, 2013

I have signed many attendance slips, and would continue
to do so for those attending meetings with me. But I really
do not think it is a good practice. Anyone in trouble and
it is evident that alcohol may be part of the problem
ought to be offered information about Alcoholics Anonymous.
The time has come for our General Service Board of
Trustees to address this issue. The issue is that the
courts are sending criminals to our meetings. Our GSB could
simply go public with a general request to the legal
system to stop this practice. That combined with an
advisory to us that this had been done, and that we would
be advised to stop signing slips.
Bill W, often said that sometimes the good can be the
enemy of the best. He further wrote that "Sometimes the
seeming temporary good can be the deadly enemy of the Permanent best.
I think Bill added that when it come to AA, nothing but
the very best will do. ANONYMOUS

Anonymous
Criminals? And judgements?

So many members came to AA as past or current criminals, the only requirement for acceptance being that they have a desire to quit drinking... If AA looked down upon "criminals", well, AA would be a much smaller group!! Isn't the way of AA to be non-judgemental, forgiving, and accepting to ALL who have a desire to quit drinking and want to better themselves?

Anonymous
signing court orderd papers.

a bunch of criminals hugh. what were many of when we came in?

Spanke"G" of the Driftwood Club Melbourrne, Fla.
32901

Anonymous
re court ordered

Great news, the General Service Board has already solved your problem for you. No bureaucratic delays or paper shuffling advisories. They have empowered YOU to take care of it yourself! It is all spelled out in a simple, easy to understand book entitled Twelve steps and Twelve Traditions.

Tradition Four gives you (your group) the power to manage your affairs as it pleases you. Of course you would have to tiptoe lightly around Tradition Three's "...only requirement for A. A. membership is a desire to stop drinking." since you want to add the requirements not being sent by the courts and not being a criminal. Three really is troublesome when you look at it in the contents; "Early intolerance based on fear. To take away any alcoholics chance at A.A. was sometimes to pronounce his death sentence." Then there is Five where we are to carry A.A.'s message to the alcoholic who still suffers. Believe me the courts know how to see to it that we alcoholics suffer.

You know, I just hate it when somebody asks me for something and then they don't use it. I've wondered how God feels about us asking for courage and then my not using it. I used to be frightened by someone who admitted having been served time in prison. Now it seems like anyone who hasn't isn't very interesting.

By the way, I think the term "Court ordered" is a misnomer. Participants that I have been familiar with were asked if they wanted to serve the prescribed punishment they had earned or accept an alternative program including attending AA. They weren't ordered they CHOSE to join us.

ski78abn
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Joined: 2014-05-24
Anonvmou, RE:court ordered

I actually laughed pretty hard she I read you say "The issue is that courts are sending criminals to our meetings". What a concept! All those outstanding alcoholics mixed up with criminals sent there by the courts, how could that ever happen. I suppose none of us ever did anything that would land us in jail/ prison or did any time in our drinking days, we just woke up one day and decided that we were alcoholic and should check out this AA thing.
Maybe that was your experience but it sure wasn't mine. I had to get a piece of paper signed when I first came in and because of it I learned what my condition was. Everyone with a drinking problem should be welcomed in AA with open arms no matter what they did in the past or will do in the future. leave the judgement to the one thats qualified to do it and there is no one thats qualified to judge another in AA!

lb2013
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Joined: 2014-03-31
court ordered

It surprised me when I began taking meetings in to jails & our state prison that most of the prisoners I met were just like me. They were incarcerated for things I had done myself in a different era. I even came to love a couple of guys who will never see freedom because of what each did on one drunken night. They always showed up to our prison meeting with Big Book in hand and a few newbies in trail. Their message was as hopeful and strong as any I've heard on the outside. I would be honored to sit next to them at my home group some day.

jslavens7
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Joined: 2012-03-22
Outside issues

I am just going to listen.

Anonymous
"Sophie's Cake" (Dec 2013 issue)

This article, "Sophie's Cake," has come at a time when one of my recovery buddies and I have been bantering back and forth about this very topic. The wife in the article mentions that the recovering husband may have to change his clean time because he ate slices (plural) of the whisky-laced pound cake; he never says he did in fact have to pick up a white chip. So, if someone inadvertently (without knowing) eats a piece of cake laced with alcohol, takes a sip of alcohol by mistake, or without intent consumes alcohol in any other way (candy??) and immediately recognizes it (oops!!) and stops, have they lost their sober time? By contrast, if a person makes a conscious decision to drink a new alcoholic product but feels nothing from it, have they lost their sober time? On the former case, where he/she did not "intend" to drink, I say they did not lose time; in the later case, when they consciously decided to drink, I say they lost time, even though it was actually a dud and they did not get buzzed. The intent and follow up action to drink was there.

Anonymous
Sophies Cake

At about 9 mos sober, someone switched my coke to a beer and I took a drink. I knew it was beer in my mouth and looked around for a trash can or even a cup to spit into. There was not. I swallowed it because my bosses boss was sitting right across the picnic table. I was so full of dread and shame. I was praying like crazy...Please help me!

As soon as I could, I called a tough oldtimer that I knew wouldn't pull any punches about whether or not I had to announce having a drink. He asked if I had been sitting there wanting a drink. I told him no, I was sitting there glad to be drinking coke. He said that if I was lying, I would get drunk. He said that others had accidentally had a drink and didn't lose their sobriety. I was afraid that if I didn't take a 24 hour chip, I'd be lying and yet I didn't want to dishonor the gift of sobriety either.

My sponsor and some other old timers told me that I did not lose my sobriety. Given that I worked in criminal justice,and was trying to be anonymous,
there was a good chance that a number of people at the table were in on the prank. It sure did get quiet when I picked up that can without looking at it.

I renewed my surrender to my higher power and did not give up. Today, I look at that as a test of my desire for sobriety and my willingness to surrender.

I got the chance to pass that on several years later when a dear friend with severe emotional disorders and 10 years sobriety had a chemical slipped into his coke. He was wackadoo for a few days, and many staff thought he had deliberately picked up. He wasn't sure what happened, and he was confused, hurt and praying like crazy. I was able to help him look at how it all happened and see what had happened to him. I encouraged him to keep his sobriety date, and if we were wrong, he would want to drink again. He didn't. He had honestly been slipped a mickey. He is still sober and prayerful.

Anonymous
CROSSTALK

I am really happy that the topic of Crosstalk is being addressed! Just last week in a meeting I expressed concern about this very topic. When I arrived in AA (in June of 1984) I was out of gas and bankrupt in all areas of my life. I was greeted with love, compassion, understanding and a helping hand. I was told - "your life will get better if you do what we did". I attended several meetings where people said the same thing time after time, some people were wandering around and some were sitting in a corner and rocking. I was gratified to see that each situation was just plain okay with the group. When I asked my sponsor when "Suzie" was going to move on to another topic, I was told that Suzie would move on when she was ready. We get what we need in AA. It was pointed out to me that we don't discuss what people say at meetings because we hear things the way we are - not necessarily the way a share was intended. Quoting others either in or outside of meetings simply was not done! People who share should be allowed to say what they need to say without comment by anyone in or outside of the meeting (except with one's sponsor). Recently I've seen some old timers relax on this area of Crosstalk to the point of disruption! It disturbs me to hear comments made about another persons share during the meeting! I believe it intimidates the newly sober people preventing them from speaking. Also - our sponsors (in the old days) were referred to as "my sponsor" - not by name. This (use of names) too is happening all too frequently for my comfort. I don't pretend to have the solution except to say that we need to examine our behavior to be sure we are carring AA's message. It is the purpose of every meeting - I believe - to practice and share how the 12 steps are working in our lives. Without the 12 steps and the sharing of our members at meetings, I would be dead today. Thank God for AA.

Anonymous
CROSSTALK

Each group has its way regarding keeping crosstalk in check. Where I frequently go, it's given a lot of latitude as long as it remains civil or harmonious. Needless to say if it consists of aggressive confrontation, then the group puts a stop to it. I have seen some groups that have a low threshold for crosstalk and some are relatively lenient. Either way, I'm okay with it.

Anonymous
Crosstalk

If the author believed what he/she said, he would never written the article in the first place and I quote from the final paragraph, "...it is not our responsibility to try to control others in a meeting." I am not sure that is a true statement as there is a reason why we have a chairperson or secretary. However, as we, or at least I, have learned in sobriety, there are not many black and white answers to most situations.

Anonymous
Drug Talk in AA

I am writing this in response to Drug Talk from the September 2013 issue. I have been sober since June 1988 and in recovery from alcoholism. I attend a women's meeting and there are several young women from a nearby rehab for women. They mostly introduce themselves as addicts. I also attend other meetings where members identify themselves as "addict/alcoholic", "alcoholic/addict", or simply "addict." That being said, there a couple things to consider. First, recovery is recovery, whether it is from alcohol, drugs, or both. Second, the AA meeting may be their best chance at recovery "from a seemingly hopeless state of mind." I am reminded of a story that Bill W. tells in Tradition 3 in the 12X12 on page 141. Briefly, a newcomer asks for admission to a meeting and admits he "has an addiction worse stigmatized than alcohol." The members, fearful that he would bring ruin to their meeting, debate about allowing this individual to attend their meeting because "we deal with alcoholics only." In the end they decide to let him and he proves to be an upstanding member. So do we want to keep everyone out who doesn't identify themselves as alcoholic or do we want to be examples of what recovery is all about.

Donna W.
Las Vegas

Anonymous
Drug talk in AA

In this day and age I doubt if we could find more than one or two "Pure Alcoholics" in our meetings. In my class of 74, at least half the folks I was in treatment with were duelly addicted to alcohol and something else. (but some of us would not admit that was the case us). My first sponsor used to say "a drug is a drug is a drug" and he would carry on for a while longer with words I won't repeat here. My Point is, that it was not until 2001 that perscription drugs took me to the same place alcohol had done 26 years earlier. I had 5 different doctors perscribing for me at the end. Drugs are a part of my struggle to find recovery. I believe that there are others out there, who like me, need to hear that they can find recovery from duel addictions in the program and meetings of AA....Anonymous

Anonymous
Drug Talk in AA

I came into AA in 1977, nobody in that "class" was just a drinker. But myself, I identified more with skid-row bums than with junkies, so I knew where I belonged. I believe that identification is what it's about, not necessarily history. As Janis Joplin said: "When the acid trip is over, we all get back to mother booze."

Anonymous
Drug talk in AA

I hear members identify themselves in those different ways like, "alcoholic/addict." And some even have other unique monikers, like "My name is . . . and I'm in long term recovery." I think it's okay because eventually, they will see the beauty in just being an anonymous member. Also, where else are these addicts and "unique" named alcoholics going to go?? Remember, this is the last stop for many of us. I hear them, smile to myself, and LISTEN to what they say next.

Anonymous
Pg 141 12 x 12

Bill is said to have been talking about a man who was homosexual. The founders were drug users also...heavy sedative narcotics. They refer to this first on page 7 of the Big Book and again on page 22. Both Bill and Dr. Bob mention it in their stories.

Anonymous
one of the 7 earmarks of

one of the 7 earmarks of Alcoholism is dual addictions.

Anonymous
Are the other 6 earmarks of

Are the other 6 earmarks of alcoholism on the ears? I heard one of the seven was sarcasm. was it one or number 1 in the 12x12 Pride leads the procession

noduis
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Joined: 2013-09-05
Re: one of the 7 earmarks of

"one of the 7 earmarks of Alcoholism is dual addictions."
Several months before AA found me I was prescribed Valium to help me over the shakes. I took them, didn't care for the side effects and stopped.
In Treatment we were given Antabuse. I stopped taking it when I began the AA program.
Over the years I have been given medication for pain. Most of those medications were thrown away after I no longer needed them.
I have never felt a desire to try any of the illegal 'recreational' drugs that are so popular today.
Since you've never met me and know nothing about me except that which I've told you, please don't diagnose me as an addict.

Anonymous
You are an addict, alcohol is

You are an addict, alcohol is a drug

clu1992
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Joined: 2012-05-30
re drug talk

the other addiction mentioned in the 12x12 is refering to a sexual.deviant. the sexual deviant was an alcoholic. we must remember that AA was not always for drunks. at first family members were let in and really anyone who was intetested could join. after awhile. it was found that these well meaning nonalcoholics couldn't give an alcoholic testimony from the podium or do one on one 12 step work. that's. when tradition. 1,3,&5 were developed. the alanon family groups, overeaters., and the origional narcotics anonymous were started. most of the 200 12 step. groups also use the 12 traditions. they. all have tradition 1,3,&5. our unity, one requirement, and singleness. of purpose revolve around alcohol. if you have a better idea for a new non AA fellowship, go for it. if it works we will join you. if it doesn't, we will be waiting for you as long as we adhere to our singleness. of purpose. when we try to help everyone, we help no one.

Anonymous
The alcoholic that has more than one addition?

What do you say, just because they are not just an alcoholic we can't help everybody?

clu1992
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Joined: 2012-05-30
re anonymous

no, you at least have a problem with alcohol -you cam het help for other problems in an appropriate fellowship or professional.

noduis
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Joined: 2013-09-05
Re: The alcoholic that has more than one addition?

"What do you say, just because they are not just an alcoholic we can't help everybody?"
I don't know who all said what, but our traditions say that as long they are alcoholics we can help them with their alcoholism regardless of their other problems. This is stated very clearly in a number of AA publications, such as the Preamble, the Tradition section of the 12&12 and the pamphlet "Problems Other Than Alcoholism."
I personally know a number of AA members who also attend GA and OA. I have yet to hear a compulsive gambler or an overeater insist that AA get rid of the Traditions in order to accomodate them. Yet that is precisely what many addicts demand. They use as a rationalization the short form of Tradition Three and refuse to look at or listen to the long form which clearly states that our focus is on alcoholism.

Anonymous
re drug talk

great share; i was immediately drawn to the book "AA Comes of Age", page 109
which states, "Long afterward we saw something else; the more AA minded its own business the greater its general influence would become"..."Today we understand this paradox; the more AA sticks to its primary purpose the greater will be its helpful influence everywhere." Now a days, we all are dually addicted
but I don't see that as an excuse to focus on outside issues. Regardless of our differences we as alcoholics have a common problem and a common solution. We are not united by our differences but bonded together by our common problem. If Bill and Bob were so concerned with drug addiction, they would have started Narcotics Anonymous not AA.

noduis
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Joined: 2013-09-05
RE: re drug talk

"the other addiction mentioned in the 12x12 is refering to a sexual.deviant. the sexual deviant was an alcoholic"
Can you provide any documented evidence of this besides gossip? According to the 12&12, page 142 and "Dr Bob and the Good Oldtimers", page 240, the man said he was the victim of an addiction.

clu1992
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Joined: 2012-05-30
re noduis

below is from the GSO archives:

Excerpt of Bill W. presentation
General Service Conference, 1968
Monday night opening dinner
(General Service Office Archives CD GSC 68/1, part 2, first audio clip)

Re: Tradition Three – relates to “Double Stigma” member; From Twelve Steps and Twelve Traditions, p. 142-143: “I am the victim of another addiction even worse stigmatized than alcoholism…”

“…The group conscience began to say to us, ‘The common welfare comes first. We do not have these biases [of power, prestige, or money]. Let us take thought for the general welfare, and after that, let’s see where the leadership stands.’ So we turn up as leaders who have not power in the usual sense, not prestige in the usual sense. We turn up as genuine servants with a discretion from the group conscience to act for them. And that’s our state here. The general welfare comes first.

Take another which at first glance might seem a little remote. At about year two, of the Akron group, a poor devil came to Dr. Bob in a grievous state. He could qualify as an alcoholic, all right. And then he said, ‘Dr. Bob, I’ve got a real problem to pose you. I don’t know if I could join AA, because I’m a sex deviate.’ Well, that had to go out to the group conscience, you know. Up to then it was supposed that any society could say who was going to join it.

And pretty soon the group conscience began to seethe and boil, and it boiled over. And, ‘Under no circumstances could we have such a peril, and such a disgrace, among us,’ said a great many.

And you know, right then our destiny hung on a razor edge over this single case. In other words, would there be rules that could exclude so-called undesirability? And that caused us in the time and for quite a time, respecting this single case, to ponder, what is the more important: the reputation that we shall have? What people shall think? Or is it our character? And who are we, considering our records? Alcoholism is quite as unlovely. Who are we to deny a man his opportunity? Any man, or woman?

And finally the day of resolution came. And a bunch were sitting in Dr. Bob’s living room, arguing, ‘What to do?’ Whereupon, dear old Bob looked around and blandly said, ‘Isn’t it time, folks, to ask ourselves, what would the Master do in a situation like this? Would He turn this man away?’

And that was the beginning of the A.A. tradition that any man who has a drinking problem is a member of A.A. if he says so, not whether we say so.

Now, I think that the import of this on the common welfare has already been staggering. Because it takes in even more territory than the confines of our Fellowship. It takes in the whole world of alcoholics. Their charter to freedom, to join A.A., is assured. Indeed, it was an act in the general welfare.”

I hope this is enough information. If not, right to GSO yourself and they will send you the same letter.

noduis
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Joined: 2013-09-05
Re: re noduis

Okay, you've proved that the alcoholic with the other addiction was a sexual deviant. Again, I ask, so what? He came to AA for help with his alcoholism, not for help with his other problem. and to quote the 12&12, "Never did he trouble anyone with his other difficulty." Addictss make a point of troubing others with their addiction, using the flimsiest excuses as justification.
When did Bill or Dr. Bob identify themselves as addicts? Bill used a total of nine words to mention his drug use. Dr. Bob mentions sedatives in two sentences, "Most of the time, therefore, I did not take the morning drink which I craved so badly, but instead would fill up on large doses of sedatives to quiet the jitters." (page 176)and ".....taking large doses of sedatives to make it possible for me to earn more money, and so on ad nauseum."
AA is and always has bee open to anyone who suffers from alcoholism. That includes alcoholics who are addicted to other substances, who are compulsive gamblers (an AA member named nemed Tex started Gamblers Anonymous) those who are "sexual deviants of one sort or another, even those who suffer from ingrown kneecaps. The first sentence in the long form of Tradition Three states, "Our membership ought to include all who suffer from alcoholism." It says nothing about including the addict who drank when he/she didn't have drugs available.

clu1992
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Joined: 2012-05-30
re at least alcohol

I agree, all AA literature says alcohol, not other substance. also, I have yet to hear a tape of dr bob or bill w introducing themselves as even alcoholic.
does anyone know when the custom began in AA to introduce. yourself. as alcoholic?

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