Magazine Discussion Topic
Great questions and thanks for being here. I see you did a lot of research there is a few missing pieces you can find.
When Bob went to meet Bill he was going to give him 15 minutes due to Bob's guilt thinking Bill is going to tell him what he should be doing, this didn't happen to Dr Bobs surprise - For the first time two alcoholics met and both were in a dilemma and needed someone to talk to - Not tell not show but to talk to. Today it's a tell and show game called sponsors who help more people out tan in the door. Conditions always limit Gods free gifts.
I really believe that Dr Bobs visit to Bill was much like the Dr's visit of the old days when doctors made house calls. Bob was very hung over and was only willing to give
this rumhound from New York 15 minutes of his time. I recently listened to an audio of one of Dr. Bob's last taiks
and he mentioned his fondness for Henrietta Siberling as
part of the reason he agreed to go to see Bill. Dr Bob was
not aware that he needed someone to talk to. Bill W had realized for the first that he REALLY needed another alcoholic in order to stay sober himself. Henrietta was the one who had the idea that they may be of help to each other.
I certainly don't mean to be critical. Lately very few say
"thanks for being here". It is usually "why are you being so negative." I truly believe that we ought to have eight
million members in AA today. When I think of the six million
we have failed, plus their families and friends I grieve.
No, Bill did not tell Dr. Bob what he had to do. Bill only
shared his own story and ended it there. Our merciful higher power, greater power, GOD did the rest. Or maybe
just a miracle of science??? ANONYMOUS
Any one who has read the big book and the 12 and 12 cannot escape the fact that Bill Wilson clearly had a spiritual experience to which he clearly accounted his release from the bondage of his obsession and compulsion with alcohol.
Why should he or we who also had no other option than trying a spiritual surrender that ended up actually working not pass EXACTLY THAT on?. We have been freed of the desire to drink because of EXACTLY that type of surrender when ALL ELSE had failed,. We would be lying to say something else saved our butts, and remiss to not tell the whole truth just because someone doesn’t agree with OUR EXPERIENCE, doesn’t LIKE it or doesn’t “APPROVE” of the solution that worked for us. Hey. No problem. Do it your way. But don’t tell me there is something wrong with my story or experience and to not pass it on.
I question whether any one who can stop permanently from drinking (all the way to the day that one dies, by the way, not for one or four or twenty-five years). If they are able to not pick up that first drink then they just maybe are one of those problem drinkers or heavy drinkers mentioned in the big book that are NOT alcoholics and give true alcoholics a bad name--because they can stop without a spiritual intervention, and are able to control their consumption of alcohol by their own will power and can maintain permanent control.
I am sorry for any one who cannot stand the "cult" atmosphere and rejects AA and goes on with their addiction and dies. Maybe a spiritual solution for that person would have brought a different outcome.
I feel that anyone who doesn’t like AA can go get sober your own way and start your own groups and live happily ever after. I will not pick any fight with you. Yay! Rock on! You are sober. Great! What works for you and your friends--Go for it! But courtesy and respect are due those of us who are maintaining sobriety in our separate, autonomous groups as we continue to pursue a joyous happy free life with other sober drunks who sit around weekly and read the books and say prayers in our meetings and go home happy and sober,
In reference to your article posted Tue, 2011-09-13 19:41, I
really don't understand how the title relates to the article. I would ask you why you are angry, but I have felt the same anger when I just don't understand something.
Your first paragraph is absolutely correct, and is
documented in the Big Book and in the 12&12. Bill's
spiritual experience is described in even more detail on
page 2 in the A.A. way of Life a reader by Bill, which was
changed to "As Bill Sees It". His God given (I believe)
release from the obsession for alcohol was also written on
page 63 in AACA, AA Comes of Age.
I think it is significant that Bill's description of
his spiritual awakening in the Big Book is less intense
than that which Bill wrote later on. I believe that all through history some men and women have stopped drinking and have remained sober "to the end of their lives" by
a religious conversion. Maybe they were true alcoholics,
maybe just problem drinkers or heavy drinkers.
Do you think that Bill remembered his spiritual
experience differently in later years? I believe Bill
"watered down" his discription of his spiritual awakening
in the Big Book. He obviously did not want to scare any
alcoholic away. In many cases the Big Book would be the
alcoholics first introduction to Alcoholics Anonymous.
Bill W's grandfather experienced a spiritual conversion
and remained sober for eight years before his death.
Ebby "got religion" but I believe he was drinking within
a few months. I understand he did have long periods of
sobriety, and was dry his last two years.
Why would anyone not like AA? If alcoholics are turned
off by the chanting, let's stop chanting. Chanting is a cult
ritual. If alcoholics are turned away by the praying at
meetings, let's stop praying at meetings. Attend a prayer
group separate from AA. Don't turn AA into a prayer group.
Bill W and Dr Silkworth developed a technique which was
proven effective for alcoholics with a desire to get well.
Share with suffering alcoholics EXACTLY how you got well.
Don't tell them what to do. We just tell them what we did
and what happened to us. We don't even imply that they have
to do the same. Let the alcoholic make his own decision,
as Bill W describes on page 8 of AACA.
Study the history where Bill writes about his six
months of "violent exertion", in his unsuccessful attempt
to help other alcoholics. What was the advice given to
Bill by Dr Silkworth. Bill writes several times that
without this advice AA could never have been born. That
approach worked with Dr Bob, who incidentally never had
the white light experience, but stayed sober for the rest
of his life. I believe Dr. Bob was a true alcoholic.
Alcoholics Anonymous is failing. We have been
spinning our wheels, churning, for two decades. I did not
know this until after 2005. No one told me. We must
reverse the blunders we have made. The evidence is in
our membership numbers, down over half a million in the
past two decades and still stagnant. ANONYMOUS
I have heard many reasons offered for AA's lack of growth
over the past three decades. The basic reason is that we
have lost the technique which was suggested to Bill W.
by Dr. Silkworth, and Bill's own personal experience. Bill
met with Dr. Bob as an equal. Bill deeply knew that he
needed another alcoholic to talk to, in order to
preserve his own sobriety. There was no sense of hierarchy.
They came together as absolute equals. That solution
hardly resembles the sponsor, teacher, preacher AA
member of today. We must return to that approach. We
owe this to the future generations of alcoholics. Are
we willing to give up our personal desires to preach,
pray at meetings, and chant. These rituals make us look
like some kind of strange religious cult. ANONYMOUS
When I first started posting on this new forum, I stated that I would write in one sentence the reason Alcoholics
Anonymous has lost its effectiveness. Here it is: Over
the past three decades Alcoholics Anonymous has morphed
into a strange religious cult. Praying at meetings makes
us look like a religion. If it looks like a duck, it must
be a duck. Chanting makes us look like a cult. The
hierarchy in today's AA makes us a cult, in my opinion.
I have covered most of my concerns in the past couple
of months, since I found the new I SAY FORUM. I wrote
hundreds of messages for the old forum site. I have
repeated myself many times, and have heard many ENOUGH
ALREADYS's. And I will end this today with the same message. Alcoholics Anonymous is pushing hundreds of
thousands of alcoholics out of our rooms every year.
Alcoholics who could recover and be restored. We fail
them by these rituals: The reading of HIW at meetings is our worst
most tragic blunder. Bill W. and Dr Silkworth explain
this many times in our literature. Simply, it is the
cart before the horse idea. The introduction of chanting
in AA gatherings around 1980, was a tragic mistake.
What may have begun with some kind of purpose, today
makes AA look like some kind of freakish joke. Sure,
new members jump right into the nonsense. The much
needed serious member is driven away by this ritual.
Dr. Bob was quoted as saying "Don't applaud me! Don't
applaud any alcoholic! Yet today, in some parts of
the country, everyone who shares is applauded. This
in not EGO deflation. EGO deflation at depth is the
solution to addiction as explained by Dr Silkworth.
Today at many meetings we make a spectacle of new
members or members returning after absence or relapse.
This is harmful to the AA member, personally, and to
AA as a whole. We ought not make a spectacle of the
newcomer, nor should we allow them to make spectacles
of themselves. The "Hold Hands and Pray" closing also
adds to confirming that we have become a religion.
This religious ritual was accepted as tradition in
one of the stories in the fourth edition of the
Big Book. A serious blunder in my opinion. There were
several other serious mistakes made in the past three
decades. They have been covered in the I SAY FORUMS
and in our AA Grapevine. I have had this obsession for
almost four years now and will again try to "cease and
desist". My computer is old and faltering. I fall into
that category myself. The "Kill the Messenger" response
to my many concerns, has also taken its toll. I suspect
that I should not write further, as it may possibly
prevent this article from being posted. I personally
don't believe that Alcoholics Anonymous will ever
recover its effectiveness. We will stumble along for
several more decades spinning our wheels, pushing
suffering alcoholics away from our rooms by the way
our meetings are conducted. Sad, appalling, tragic!
Don't give up!
I realized several years ago, that human nature has a tendency to follow the leader-by the way sheep, also fall into this category. About the same time as this realization, I stopped holding hands and chanting. My moment of silence at the beginning of most meetings is to quickly remind myself that this meeting is not about me-it's about us, so hopefully if I choose to share, it will be helpful not only to myself but to others.
I believe in the Preamble. I think it pretty much says it all.
As for the drug issue, I'm a recovering alcoholic and drug addict, I'm 55 years old and have remained sober for the past 28 years by practicing the 12 steps of AA.
I don't own AA, don't have any right to tell others how to recover and hope that I never feel the need.
One thing that I do know, is that I am who I am, it works if I work it, and it doesn't if I don't. But please don't hold hands and quote me on that:)
Holding hand seems to promote some emotion bond among us.But the Lord's Prayer is surely Christian,I prefer the Serenity Prayer & it is often used,like last night at my Big Book Study group.
I believe this is one of the times that Bill W. is talking
about when he says that "Sometimes the temporary seeming
good can be the deadly enemy of the permanent best". Holding
hands with friends is indeed warming. What about the newcomer, nervous, sweating, shaking who is forced into
holding hands with strangers. And I suspect that many non-
believers find holding hands with us Christians repulsive.
Why take the chance of excluding any alcoholic, regardless
of her/his beliefs. Can we of AA sacrifice our need for
the warm fuzzy closing in order to be all inclusive.
Everybody wins and nobody loses. Leave the holding hands
for the romantics. ANONYMOUS
Our first tradition of unity has nothing to do with our standing around in our "ring around the rosy" circle praying
and chanting. Unity is the sacrifice of our own clamors and
desires for the benefit of those who may be new. I personally do not like to hold hands with strangers. I have
met others who feel the same way. For years I conformed
because I did not have the courage to resist. I no longer
"hold hands and pray" although this custom was accepted
by our conference when they accepted the fourth edition of the big book.
There are probably historians out there who have
information as to when the meetings were first closed with
the Lords prayer. I believe that initally when they
met in homes, they simply ended the meeting after the
last member shared their story. And had more coffee and
I prefer the Lords Prayer for closing the meeting.
The choice should be made by the group's fully informed
group conscience. To announce that we close the meeting
with a certain prayer, and anyone who wishes can join in
is welcome to do so, is acceptable. To coerce any member
to join in holding hands actually harms our public
relations. SAY WHAT?
The "hold hands and pray" closing began in the
northeast in the early 1980's, along with a decade of
other evolutionary changes at the group level. How
well have these changes served us? Our membership
numbers reveal the sad truth. ANONYMOUS If anyone needs
an emotional bond, how about a handshake?
Bill W. was our cofounder who led Alcoholics Anonymous through its first three and a half decades. I believe he
made some errors in the last years of his life. Instead of
actually stepping down after the formation of the
conference service structure, Bill remained in charge
too long and remained the head of AA. His reputation
as a womanizer harmed our reputation. I understand that
the membership just refused to let him step down. But I
have studied enough of AA's history, to believe today
that Bill had God given insight. He saw that AA was being
led into being a religion. Bill warned us of the danger of
this in AACA, bottom of page 232. He repeated this
warning in Language of the Heart in an article to the
AA Grapevine in April 1963. We failed to heed these
warnings. Even the courts today have labled AA as
being a religion. AA history is a vital asset, yet
most AAs have never read the information left for us.
I remember stumbling home with a corned beef sandwich and 2 tall beers after a hard night. I guess I figured I wasn't drunk enough. Then, 4 tylenols and 2 tall glasses of water. Maybe a scotch for dessert if I didn't pass out. I also thought this was a perfectly normal way to live.