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I have finally desided that AA is not for me!!The more I listen to the members the more I hate the meetings things have changed alot since B W started this.to say this is not religouse based is hipacridical good luck to you all but I refused to be brain washed by out dated lodgic!!!
all of the fundamentals of the Program of Recovery are from a religious base. Although we are not affiliated with any sect,denomination, or institution.
It is imperritive to find a Higher Power of your understanding and invite it to guide your thoughts and actions each day.
the door of AA will always be open .
This is sad. So sad. Sounds like self will with a healthy topping of resentment. Can't be sure, but it sounds like something I would have said through a few relapse periods for me.
Should you find a way to become healthy without the help of the program, you will be one of the lucky few. Thank heaven. :-) If not, AA will always Brrr they're too help should you have a change of heart.
God bless and good luck.
I too felt this way . for 10 years i shunned aa as a cult or religion. not until i was ready to do anything it took that my eyes opened the fear and descriminating left. peace replaced these thing thanx to the great people of aa. you must learn it is not the book or meetings it is the people.
if ur an alchy like me, ur brain could use a good washing! seriously, if u don't like the meetings, start ur own. i did.
Alcoholics Anonymous is not for everyone. If you are
still on board, I ask you to please state exactly what it
is that you find repulsive. Meeting ought to be attractive
What are some of the things that bother you? Be specific,
not just that they cultish and religious. Maybe the things
that bother you bothers others. Perhaps changes can be made.
A large number of members are reading this forum.
I, personally would be willing to consider changes. If
you are a real alcoholic "of my variety", you will only
continue to hurt yourself and those around you. I would
be willing to sacrifice rituals or customs. There is no
way we can change the message, but maybe we can and ought
to change the way we carry the message.
By leaving AA you are joining the millions who have
left in the past two decades. But each one who leaves
goes on alone; I fear to a sad life and an early death.
Sincerely, what can we do to help? ROSE
I can really relate to the desire to bag AA. Over the past 20 years I have taken long vacations from meetings because people in the meetings interfered with my serenity!! In a small, rural town, one or two idiots can really muck it up.
Guys who think service work is latching onto newcomer girls,nagging control freak sponsors, people selling their version of a higher power. Old timers who are mean and abusive, who lie,engage in character assassination, though sober longer than anyone. It can be so wearing.
But I always come back.
I always come back because the wonderful folks who quietly help others on this path outnumber the dry drunks by ten fold. So I always come home to the place that saved my life.
you have the right to think and act as you wish. I hope before stop going too meetings you read pg,449 third edition Big Book , Doctor, Alcoholic, Addict. And Acceptance is the answer to( ALL) my problems today. Rick L
AA has no monopoly on sobriety, so I hope you find what you need elsewhere. However, while I have no idea where you have tried AA, there are large numbers of agnostics and atheists thriving in AA, notwithstanding some of the antiquated and intolerant language in "Alcoholics Anonymous"(the Big Book) that too often gets repeated by AA "fundamentalists." Try Google-ing "Agnostics & AA," check out some of the sites. You just might find an AA far more open-minded, compassionate, free thinking than that to which you have previously been exposed. I did.
I have done exactly as you recommended a number of times over the last several years and I encourage anyone to do the same. Unfortunately most sites I have found don’t have much to offer. The bulk of their content are simply complaints that AA won’t drop any mention of God for them and they don’t like it. Their recipe for recovery is the mother in law solution “Just don’t drink”. One with a top notch essayist recommended a four part system of recovery. Admission that abstinence was needed, a moral inventory, good behavior and helping others. Sound familiar? Show me an alcoholic willing to jump from step one to four and suddenly drop a lifetime dominated with self centeredness, impatience, superiority and a low tolerance for frustration and we are in business.
God fearing drunks do not have a monopoly on whining about what is wrong with AA, though at times you wouldn't know that based on the substantial number of complaints on this site about how the "original message" is being watered down. As an aside, I had to laugh when a young man told me about a church-based addiction boot camp, or something like that, he went to. When I asked if it were based on the 12-steps, he replied, in all seriousness, "No, it is a God-based program." But your point about some of the agnostic sites is well-taken. I think patience, acceptance, and tolerance, along with true humility, are the very last things to come in sobriety. I can only hope that while I wait for them to arrive or surface from within me, I do not say something that may harm or offend someone with different (and therefore wrong?) views than mine.
I was told after a meeting tonight that I over-intellectualize AA. I am the first to admit that I've always been a very analytical person. I have a degree in philosophy and can happily pass the time just pondering life's questions. I find AA to be a particularly fertile place for both spiritual AND intellectual growth and I see nothing wrong with "thinking" in AA. Yet I often encounter this belief that using my intellect is somehow dangerous. I hear people say, "my best thinking got me here" and although I understand their point, I would argue that it was my WORST thinking that got me here and that with the help of my HP and AA I am trying each day to improve my thinking. For me, understanding the principles and how they apply to my life is a very important part of my recovery. To suggest that I shouldn't think so much is akin to suggesting that I not breath so much. I am practicing a program of recovery that can and will save my life. I feel I owe it to myself to study it, to understand it, to learn all I can about it as if my life depended on it...after all, it does. I would like to hear what others "think" on the subject of thinking in AA. Is it a dubious luxury? Am I headed down a slippery path by using my noggin'? Do I need to dumb it down in meetings when I share so as not to put others off?
I too am a student of Philosophy. My experience in this program teaches me to be balanced. There are times to think and there are times to quiet the mind. My Higher Power has guided me on this. My higher power works through others, so there may be some validity to the feedback that you received. But, use your own barometer; are you spiritually fit? If I can practice the 3rd, 10th, 11th and 12th steps on a daily basis with no difficulty, the answer is usually yes. I realize that while my mind can move upward to accept new values in my life, my Higher Power can also transcend those morals, understandings and experiences if I allow this to happen. I value the question, so I never stop asking. My Higher Power has given me the courage to accept the answers.
In the first month or so of sobriety, after a meeting, I heard a couple of long-timers talking about me. One commented that she really thought I was going to "get it." Who knows what gibberish I had shared during the meeting, full as I was of non-western philosophies as I struggled with the "god thing." The other, who I later asked to sponsor me, replied: "If he doesn't over-think this thing." That of course was Dr. Bob's last message to Bill W: don't louse this thing up with a lot of Freudian nonsense - keep it simple.
For a time, I studied AA intensely, figuring I was best armed by being best informed. Over time, I have come to realize that all my erudition will not keep me sober, and in fact may lead me to conclude that I have this whole thing figured out and don't need AA, which is a sure road to relapse and worse. I also realize that I am one with the least learned (in a bookish sense)in AA, that I can learn something from everyone. I need to dispense with my intellectual pride inside (and outside) AA, as ultimately of course "intellectual pride" is an oxymoron.
Please don't dumb down. We need all of the variety we can get.
I suffer from a disease with at least three symptoms:
I can't control drinking after drinking a small amount,
Un-aided, I can't stay away from drinking,
and three I deny the first two.
It takes a tremendous amount of learning and experience to combat these consistently. Repetition is part of any learning. I have needed to hear, read, be exposed to the simple lessons of AA scores of times and I needed to hear these things explained scores of ways. Your angle on some part of recovery will be exactly what someone is needing for their Ah-Ha. Stick with it.
study big book pages 84 -88
in particular page 86. BB tells us exactly how to use our brains.
Thanks for your reply. The sort of contemplation I'm talking about is the kind that helps me to better understand and articulate the principles I've come to understand in this program. I enjoy using analogies to convey what it used to be like and what it's like today. I feel it helps me to carry the message. With that said, I will happily continue contemplating and marveling at the spiritual life I'm continually nurturing.
My sponsor Gordy G., got me going on audio tapes by Dr. Paul (Big Book, "Acceptance was the Answer (p.407)." He closes his story with ".....my serenity is inversely proportional to my expectations." That is certainly true for me, especially when what Dr. Paul calls his "magic magnifying mind" takes over.
I do best in the morning when I start out with readings followed by as much silence as I can tolerate. This practice keeps me centered on God's will rather than my own, driven by over-thinking my problems and my agenda. Only then, am I free to pray.
Dr. Bob was a thinker, he read up on just about every philosophy and religion including the Koran, Confucius and voodooism (Dr. Bob and the Good Oldtimers pp. 309-311) Bill W. was a thinker too. The next time you bump into the alcoholic who told you that you over intellectualize, maybe you could think about saying to them that Step Two says “..humility and intellect could be compatible, provided we placed humility first.” (The Twelve Steps and Twelve Traditions p. 30 http://www.aa.org/twelveandtwelve/en_pdfs/en_step2.pdf )
And, “Those words of old time, ‘judge not,’ we observe most literally.”- Bill W. (“Tradition One,” The Language of the Heart p. 76, AA Grapevine December 1947 http://da.aagrapevine.org/ )
Then ask them if they have ever read the AA Service Manual Combined with Twelve Concepts for World Service. Professor of Psychiatry at Harvard medical school George E Valliant described it as “…a great piece of world literature, like the American Constitution. It is a great contribution to human thought.” (“A Doctor Speaks” AA Grapevine May 2001).
Here’s a bit from Concept IX:
“As individuals and as a fellowship, we shall surely suffer if we cast the whole job of planning for tomorrow onto a fatuous idea of Providence. God’s real providence is that he has endowed us human beings with a considerable capacity for foresight, and He evidently expects us to use it. Therefore we must distinguish between a wishful fantasy about a happy tomorrow and the present use of our powers for thoughtful estimate. This can spell the difference between future progress and unforeseen woe.
Vision is therefore the very essence of prudence, an essential virtue if ever there was one. Of course we shall often miscalculate the future in whole or in part, but that is better than to refuse to think at all.”
– Bill W.
(Concept IX, The AA Service Manual Combined with Twelve Concepts for World Service p 38 http://www.aa.org/pdf/products/en_bm-31.pdf )
I have to throw a sober bachelor party for a sponsee and I am looking for suggestions
Well...simply make it clear on the invites that "it's a no booze party". Let's see who the real friends are then? Have fun..you can still hire a bikini lady to jump out of a cake.
I have recently relapsed and the after effects both mentally and physically are so extreme and different than I have ever felt before. I feel great despair and doom inside me, it so horrible that it is giving me panic attacks (severe), I have never in my life had one of those. How do I get rid of this, can someone help me? I'm really desperate and scared this time. Please share with me on how some of you went through. I feel worthless and useless like never before. Its tearing me up. Thank you...
i been sober 11 and half month,and i am learning patience and clairity..my daughter just got locked up tonight at age 17 for assult and i was not mad or upset, my husband was so mad i was so calm and didn,t jump to go get her...i had some coffee and then called the OPP back..i am not responsible for her actions and i have choices in life and i don't need anyone to guilt me into doing what i think is right...and i belive everything will work out..
You have to pick yourself up and get back on the wagon. I was in AA 20 years ago and kept myself sober, going to meetings, social interaction with AA crowd, when slowly I started to slip away and eventually fell off the wagon completely. Since then I fought it and tried to convince myself that I am not an alcoholic, even though it was all getting crazy again. I felt like I'll never get it back again. Things got bad for me and I was not living my life - I was living for the next drink every other damn day. Now, as of today, I have eight days of sobriety and am starting over again after 20 years! I have to for me, my health, and my family.Yes , I have felt and still do feel anxious and depressed but the fog is starting to clear and I know I've got a long road once again. If I can do it, you can, too, my friend. Anyone of us can fall off the wagon, and anyone of us can climb back on again if we just take it one day at a time. That's my motto for this past week and everyday. Good luck.
I have heard comments like: It is easier to stay sober
than it is to get sober. I have also heard that the first
time is a gift; the second time is very difficult. It may
even seem impossible, but sobriety is still possible.
If you can "go away" for a 28 day drying out period,
you may have a better chance. You are fighting for your
life, so stay away from the first drink at whatever the
cost. Use every ounce of willpower you can muster. Find
some meetings which make sense. I find today that many
meetings are just nonsense. You may have to search.
Many have gained sobriety. You can too. ANONYMOUS
The Fellowship alone will not keep you sober, the program of recovery is in the Twelve Steps. Find a group member who has taken the Steps and ask them to take you through them . Half measures avail us nothing, and I'm not judging, I relapsed multiple times before I made a commitment to do the!work and it saved my life and led me to a new freedom and a new happiness! Don't give up good luck and God bless.
I saw the play "Bill W. and Dr. Bob" last night, it's playing here in NYC... and it was such an amazing experience. For the first time I really understood that Bill W....is not the star of AA. I thought of him as the leader, the main man. But I realized while watching the play that without Dr. Bob... we would have no program. That this is truly a WE program. I went with my 2 sponsees, and one of their sponsees. I'm in my 40s. My sponsees are in their 20. My grandsponsee, as it were, is 18 years old. 3 generations of people, who are sober today because of this program and the people that came before us. What an amazing gift. Has anyone seen this play? It made me pick up the book "Pass it On" so I could learn even more....
I hope I'm not interrupting, but I am bothered by a sentence in the book Daily Reflections, that I came upon while attending a Daily Reflections Meeting not long ago . From that book on pg. 162, from June 2, THE UPWARD PATH. Without spelling out the whole passage, "These words do not imply that I should walk the well-trodden path of those who went before, but rather that there is a way for me to become sober and that it is a way I shall have to find". I never read such bunk coming from any A.A. literature. I understand that the A.A. GENERAL SERVICE CONFERENCE APPROVED THIS LITERATURE. I have to ask, Did this passage come up so late that every one at the Conference was so tired they all said 'Yaa', so they could rest up for the next days agenda? Look, I speak from experience when I say that sentence does not work. I tried it my self and thanks to those who came before me that showed me the correct path I have forty two years of continuous sobriety. I would be dead long ago if I had not "walked the well-trodden path of those who went before me." Oh, by the way, the handful of people in all those forty two years I was sober who adhered to that philosophy to my recollection, were not around very long.
So, who am I? I'm James and I am a real Alcoholic! And I hope the A.A. GENERAL SERVICE CONFERENCE gets it right and Disapproves that sentence. Its all yours now!
I am convinced that Bill W. and his friends would never
have approved our conference approved Daily Reflections
book. It would have been rejected just like the 24 hr.
book was rejected. And for the same reasons. It reeks
of religion. It has too much God in it. You might ask
how could too much God be a bad thing. That would be
like having a girl too pretty or a car too fast.
Bill W. often writes about the IDEA offered by Dr.
Silkworth in the spring of 1935. Bill stated that
without this idea, AA could never have been born. Most
AA members today have no idea what this IDEA is all
about. A thorough study of Chapter 1 Verse 17 in the
gospel of John is called for. It has to do with
the subject of Grace and Truth, and how important it
is to balance the two. Too much truth without the
proper amount of grace has all but destroyed our
fellowship. If we can restore the equality every
AA member ought to be offered, we can restore the
effectiveness of the fellowship our founders left for
us. But our members keep on insisting: "Nothing the
matter here." That is the big lie. ANONYMOUS
Perhaps you should consider the passage to be a koan, to be meditated upon until its true meaning is attained.
The "truth" of what he said "has been revealed"??
The passage is just something believed by one member of AA.
Maybe its "true meaning" has been revealed to the the writer of the comment (and me BTW) and it's been revealed as being misguided and dangerously untrue.
I do not have a copy of Daily Reflections in front of me. However, I believe that for every 100 AA members, there are 100 different paths to sobriety, and that I must find my own path even within AA. There are those I know in AA with 50+ years of sobriety who would never recommend their path, other than to the extent that it has involved not drinking and working the steps "as they understand the steps" to the best of their ability. But glad to have you and others out there concerned with ferreting out doctrinal errancy. You might next direct your efforts to the book "Alcoholics Anonymous," where there are many passages I would consider "misguided and dangerously untrue," as evidenced by Bill W's later writings, including the 12 x 12. For him, at least, more was in fact revealed.
forward to the first edition of "the Big Book" contains comments "We of Alcoholics Anonymous who have
RECOVERED from a seemingly hopeless state of mind and body...(have published this)..to show other alcoholics
precisely HOW WE HAVE RECOVERED. fOR DISCUSSION:
(1) Do you believe that YOU have RECOVERED and if so when did you come to this conclusion,
and why, and how?
(2) Do you believe that YOU have NOT yet recovered, and if so, when did you come to this conclusion,
and why, and how?
this forward appeared in the first printing of the first ediion, 1939. how much sober time did Bill W
have in 1939?
We recover from a "hopeless state of mind and body." to one of hope for mind and body.
We don't (fully) recover from alcoholism - in its physical (we retain the 'allergy'), mental or spiritual manifestations.
Or else we wouldn't need the continued maintenance of our spiritual condition.
21 mth sober and feel great, but after seeing so many people relapse in the AA rooms and in treatment....I think it's best for ME to know that I can never be fully recovered. The minute I start to think that I may slip.
So...I am happy to know simply that I am in recovery every day. Is really OK for am alive, sober and slowly my life is changing for the BEST. Thank God & fell free to comment.
Bill left Towns Hospital for the 3rd time in December of 1934-- he remained free of alcohol for the rest of his life.
LoisJean, Bill left Towns Hospital for the third time in
the summer of 1934. He picked up a drink again on Nov 11th
and had his last drink on Dec 11. He entered Towns Hospital
on Dec 11, 1934 for the last time as a patient. I read this
in "Pass It On". (from the horse's mouth). ANONYMOUS
If I went to an A.A. meeting today and these questions
were asked, I would head for the nearest exit door. This
topic is controversial and divisive. Years ago I did attend
an A.A. meeting, an hour meeting and the topic was recovered
or recovering. What a waste of an hour, plus considerable
travel time. Not worth a "hill of beans" as my Dad used
to say. Note: My name is Joe and I am an alcoholic. An
ANONYMOUS alcoholic. 1939 was a long year. Bill got sober
mid Dec 1934. Do the math.
While recently re-reading the AA pamphlet “3 talks to medical societies by bill w”, I was once again reminded of why AA has the book “Alcoholics Anonymous”, our 12 steps as a program of recovery, and how grateful I am for them.
Bill sobered up in 1934. After 6 months they had been using Ebby T’s six step program for recovery. In substance, here they are:
1. Ebby admitted that he was powerless to
manage his own life.
2. He became honest with himself as never
before; made an “examination of conscience.”
3. He made a rigorous confession of his personal
defects and thus quit living alone with his
4. He surveyed his distorted relations with
other people, visiting them to make what amends
5. He resolved to devote himself to helping
others in need, without the usual demand for
personal prestige or material gain.
6. By meditation, he sought God’s direction
for his life and the help to practice these principles
of conduct at all times.
By 1937 they had around 40 solid recoveries, so they thought it was time to put their word of mouth program on paper. Bill writes,
“By the spring of 1939, our Society had produced
a book which was called “Alcoholics
Anonymous.” In this volume, our methods were
carefully described. For the sake of greater clarity
and thoroughness, the word-of-mouth program
which my friend Ebby had given to me was
enlarged into what we now call A.A.’s “Twelve
Suggested Steps for recovery.” This
was the backbone of our book”
I find it interesting Bill is still referring to the Big Book in 1958, 5 years after he wrote the 12x12, that the Big Book is where our methods were carefully described. He also mentions the case histories in the back of the book. I am still amazed that after all these years I have witnessed alcoholic after alcoholic follow the Big Books suggestions and apply those steps to their daily life and recover from a hopeless state of mind and body. Just think in 1935 there were just a handful of chronic drunkards sober and today AA has around 2.4 million worldwide. Thank God I was born in this era and not when there were no answer to alcoholism.
Much prefer the original 6 steps, that's my programme and in fact I just work the first 5 of those as I am an atheist.
It would have been far better for Bill W to have stuck with the original 6 steps.
Try saying it in a meeting though.....the "do it the Big Book way else become a dry drunk mafia" get very hot under the collar...yet tell them to go and read some AA history and they go into denial
Thanks for the reminder of the 6 step program. After many years of sobriety and having made the steps part of the way I live, I've come to the conclusion that ultimately it's not the steps but what is contained in them that is important - the principles.
Now, don't get me wrong, the numbered 12 steps provide a useful framework for working and studying the steps and learning the principles. In time though, it's not so much that I'm "working my 4th step, or 11th step" as that I regularly take my own inventory and know what to do with it, I pray, I meditate, I make amends, I'm of service....as a way of life.
The 6 step program contained the essence of these principles and Bill & early AA's chose to flesh them out. At the root of this endeavor was a spirit of humility. The program was built on what came before and what worked. We know only a little. More will be revealed.
In addition to the steps, there are other amazing things that make AA special and have saved it from destruction...
Singleness of purpose - focus on recovery from alcoholism
Identification - one alcoholic helping another
No money, property or prestige (position, leaders)
Service - Helping others
There are more but you get the idea.
Please do an investigation of those first six month
when Bill was using Ebby's six steps. Bill writes that
they did not work at all. His success was nil.
Bill changed his approach, using the "cart before the
horse idea" offered by Dr. Silkworth. His next "prospect",
Dr. Bob, responded to this approach and A.A. was
born. Bill wrote several times that if he had not
changed his approach, AA would never have been born.
When the Big Book was written Bill was less than five years
sober. I would hate to think what would have happened
to me if I had stopped there. At five years sober I
could barely tie my own shoe laces.
Bill W. actually spent the rest of his life explaining
and clarifying (and IMO correcting) the meaning of the
Big Book. When I look at all the corrections which were
made at the last minute, I believe there were other
corrections to be made but time was up. But Bill did
cover all, when he wrote that the entire book was to
be suggestive only. Today most A.A. members are experts and insist
on their own interpretations, ignoring Bill's further
writings and his warnings.
There are those who believe that the BB was divinely
inspired, and have made it a second Bible. I once held
this belief myself. I thought of Bill as being some kind
Today I understand that Bill W. was just a man much
like most men. In a moment of desperation, he
reached out for help from God. I don't think Bill ever
gave the credit to Christ. But the spiritual awakening
Bill experienced was not something new. Bill's grandfather
had a similar conversion years earlier.
The miracle which Bill found was a successful method of
passing this miracle on to other suffering alcoholics. This
method has been lost in today's Alcoholics Anonymous.
Today we preach, or teach the method instead of carrying it. Sure,
some alcoholics do respond and get well. But today we
push the masses away from what may be their last chance
I know this message is difficult to understand. It
took me over 35 years to "figure this out". Hopefully
some of you will care enough about A.A. and the future
of A.A. to do your own investigation. A good place to
begin is page 70 in Alcoholics Anonymous Comes of Age.
Our persistent lack of growth over the past two
decades is just appalling. ANONYMOUS
Interesting comments about bill w 's sober time.
Approximately 2.3 billion people are Christian. JESUS was 30 when he started his ministry. He was killed around the age of 33 1/2, so he had 3 1/2 years. He made such an impact that 30% of the world believes in him in 2013. In fact we base our year on Jesus.
I don't Think it's A stretch that bill could write a book with the help of 40 sober alcoholics describing A program of recovery for alcoholism. Fyi, bill was around 3 years sober when the began writing the big book, a book with 33 million copies in circulation!
Personally I consider it a real stretch to compare Bill W.
to Jesus Christ. And you don't even capitalize Bill's name.
In doing my second step I looked at various religions of the world. God has sent lots of messengers, I don't think it is a stretch.
Bill W. was not the gift. The gift of A.A. and sobriety
was the method in which the message is transferred from
one alcoholic to another. This IDEA came from Dr. Silkworth.
Bill W. gives this credit to "silky" many times in our literature. I
believe that in his later years Bill's EGO erased that
memory. He seems to have started thinking that he was indeed the gift, that he was some kind of spiritual leader
That ought to be a warning to the rest of us. Bill W.
was no saint, and stated that in chapter five. ANONYMOUS
It is really not that important what I think. But in
reality the book ALCOHOLICS ANONYMOUS is a story book. It
is a story of how many thousands of men and women have
recovered from alcoholism. Bill wrote on page 164 that
"Our book is meant to be suggested only".
It seems that Ebby worked all of the steps. He was not
very successful, although I understand he was sober a
couple of years at the end of his life.
"Don't Drink and Go to Meetings", will work 100% for
any alcoholic. Never will that fail.
Study Bill W's absolute failure of those six months
you mention. Cramming the steps down prospects throats
pushes them away. Big Book thumpers do the same thing.
We have a method which will work with most alcoholics
approaching us. How does it work? Bill wrote in that
pamphlet that even he could not fully explain how A.A.
works. Yet we think we can explain it. ANONYMOUS
Don't drink and go to meetings works exactly 0% with alcoholics of my type. I'm the alcoholic that halfmeasures avail nothing. By AA 's definition, an alcoholic is someone who has Lost the ability to control their drinking. I went on a 12 step call Wed night to an alcoholic of my type who made it 10 months not drinking and going to meetings. The insanity of alcohol returned and he drank. Being an alcoholic didn't even come to mind. He had a mental blank spot when it came to alcohol, exactly the way the big book describes it.
From reading about Ebby T, it appears he didn't continue working with others after 12 step
ping Bill W.