636 replies [Last post]
RE Don't start out as.......

When I read your posting, it sounds like you are an evangelist, preacher, and a teacher! Read what you are asking others to do and apply it to yourself.
Sorry to take your inventory. I always say that. Sorry to but do it anyway. Looks like I have some growing up to do!


re step 12

I suggest reading the pamphlet "The AA Group"
It states the sole purpose of an AA group is the teaching and practicing of the 12 steps.
There is also a great article by Bill W about why the serenity prayer and the Lords prayer is OK to use in AA.

Good luck and God bless you.


Why does Bill write that the sole purpose of an
AA GROUP is teaching and practicing the 12 steps? Why
doesn't he say that it is the purpose of each member
of the group? I think it means what it says, exactly
as it is written.
Where is the article by Bill W. about why the serenity
prayer and the Lords Prayer are OK to use in AA?
The decision on how to close an AA meeting ought to
be determined by a fully informed group conscience. The
requirement to "hold hands and pray" is unconscionable.
Leave holding hands to the romantics. ANONYMOUS

re aa group

First, i feel if u and i are sharing on how we work the steps, we are "as a group" teaching the steps. newcomers can decide for themselves who to listen to and what to do.
Second, if u google "bill wilson lords prayer origins" a letter to Russ from the sixties explains the origin of the prayer in meetings and why we have used it since 1935.
Third, if you look up lords prayer in the "dr bob and the good oldtimers" index you will find 4 examples of using the lords prayer to close meetings.

I hope you enjoy the reading,

re step 12

Good advice! you should try your suggestion! ;)

RE: re step 12.

Thanks for the advice. It did bring a smile after
reading it a couple of times. I am almost done, really.
My wife laughs when I say that. In the evening I promise her that I will give up. But not just yet. ANONYMOUS

Joined: 2012-03-04
Re: re step 12

My wife once said to me: "There's only one thing worse than an alcoholic - that's an alcoholic who's got religion." Fortunately I took her point. Since then we've been very happily and unhappily married for over twenty years. I find it best for me not to make promises or talk to her about my 'new dawn' resolutions.

Joined: 2011-12-31
Thank you very much for

Thank you very much for sharing your thoughts. It is much clearer to me now, what I have got to do to get on.

Morten A. Denmark


I like it to say: We do not give directions but a path to follow. I do not like to follow directions of others. I like to go a path that works with another.

I relapse again and again after 4 years sobriety. I think that was because I feel the steps as directions. Now I will try it again, I will DO it again and follow the path. With the help of God.

re path

Path vs Directions or Directions vs Path?

I interpret path and directions as having the same meaning in the excerpts from the Big Book listed below. There are other phrases that use path and directions but they have a different context. I think Bill, just like any other author used several different words to mean the same thing.

Read the following and decide for yourself.

The Twelve Steps that summarize the program may be called los Doce Pasos in one country, les Douze Etapes in another, but they trace exactly the same path to recovery that was blazed by the earliest members of Alcoholics Anonymous. BB xxii, Foreword to Third Edition
Further on, clear-cut directions are given showing how we recovered. BB p.29, There Is A Solution
Rarely have we seen a person fail who has thoroughly followed our path. BB p.58, How It Works
If we have carefully followed directions, we have begun to sense the flow of His Spirit into us. BB p.85, Into Action

On page 58 of the Big Book it says, If you have decided you want what we have and are willing to go to any length to get it—then you are ready to take certain steps.
At some of these we balked. We thought we could find an easier, softer way. But we could not. With all the earnestness at our command, we beg of you to be fearless and thorough from the very start. Some of us have tried to hold on to our old ideas and the result was nil until we let go absolutely.

I have to ask myself if I am willing to go to any length. If I am then I am ready to take those certain steps. If I hold on to my old ideas the result is nil. To me that means thinking I know best. I have to remember my best thinking led me to chronic alcoholism. I also believe nil means nothing!

Thanks for reading,

Path vs direction

This whole thread of conversation regarding symmantics is a perfect example of how we as alcoholics can "screw up a free lunch". There is absolutely no reason to complicate a mud puddle. Seriously, sometimes I just have to take a blind leap of faith. I don't worry whether something is a path or a direction. Sometimes the choices that my sponsor suggests sound completely foreign to me. I just have to do it, not think about it and let the results to my higher power. Afterall my best thinking gets me drunk. That is not to say that I shouldn't use my brain. I'm using my brain to choose not to have an issue with path vs. direction.

That slippery slope is hard

That slippery slope is hard to get off. I hope you change the things that you did before.

RE Path

I don't like to play word games. I know a path or directions is the same thing. I do idiotic things when drinking, but I am not an idiot.

I also know AA does not have a monopoly on sobriety. Drunks have been sobering up once in awhile from a variety of methods.

I also know that ounce our spiritual plan of action was developed and printed in the book "Alcoholics Anonymous", millions of hopeless drunks have begun a sober and usefull life.

In 1991 I was dry 9 months going to meetings in AA. I left my homegroup meeting feeling good after talking to my sponsor. Within 3 hours I was drunk. someone passed a drink my way and I took it.

That's when I finally took my 1st step. I finally conceded to my innermost self that I was a hopeless drunkard. In taking that first step, I found the willingness to do those other 11 embarassing steps as outlined in the Big Book.

I have not only not had a drink since, but I have been happily married,father,gainfully employed,and a contributing member to my community.

I owe it all to the "fellowship" and the "program" of AA


RE: RE: Path

No, Corey, you are not an idiot, just uninformed, or
misinformed. There is a great difference in directions and
a path. Our A.A. pioneers left us a path to follow. They also left us directions telling us how to follow the path. If we use the exact directions, following the path is not that difficult. Understanding the directions is the conundrum.
I believe the statement: Rarely have we seen a person fail
who has thoroughly followed our path. We ought to be
sharing our own experience, strength and hope, not giving
directions to anyone. The "program" has diminished the
effectiveness of the fellowship.
When you finally took that first step, you found the
willingness. Then you (and I) became willing to do
whatever is necessary (the rest of the steps), which is
a lifetime process. That is the way it has been for me.
I am also a father; My grown children have never seen me drink. Happy Father's day to you and me, and all fathers, drunk or sober. My father was often a drunk, but he did
the best he could with what he had. He had no solution.
Today, we know "There is a solution". We need to dig it
out and start using it again. It worked before and will
work again, if we follow the "few simple rules". The
simple rules are not the twelve steps. I don't think
anyone would consider the twelve steps to be "simple".

re path

Rules,path,directions,steps, suggestions & requirements.

When i came to AA & got serious about sobriety, those six words all meant the same thing to me.

There is a lot of sobriety around here. Can anyone define those six words in AA language without playing word games?


Webster's Random House College Dictionary may be able to
help you. I can assure you that each word has a distinct
and different meaning. Check them out. That I would
surely recommend. You can also look up recommend. ANONYMOUS

Joined: 2012-01-18

I came to AA and stayed because I wanted to recover from alcoholism, not to play word games. Untreated alcoholics will go to any lengths to keep from taking the steps, including nitpicking about definitions.
Jim S.

Word Games

I hope you do not consider this forum to be an AA
meeting. This is more like a group conscience meeting,
where everyone has the opportunity and responsibility
to share feelings, thoughts and opinions.
"Follow our directions" was changed to "follow our
path", just before the Big Book went to print. Today's AA has reversed that decision. A path
is not the same as directions. There is no one on
that path. God may be there, but you probably won't
see Him. Who would you consider to be untreated
alcoholics, other those who do not take the steps?
The last time I looked, the steps were still suggestions,
not a requirement for membership or sobriety. ANONYMOUS

RE: Path

It is very difficult to regain sobriety after relapse.
I have heard that the first time is a gift. The second
time is hard. But it can be done. Of course the deadly
enemy is that next first drink. With four years around
AA, you probably know what you have to do. If your spouse
is an alcoholic who still drinks, get away from that.
Make whatever changes which need to be made.
I wish I could tell you to sit down with a sponsor
and work the steps and you will be well. Many will
tell you that is "How it Works". They will read that
message over and over. But that is not the path
written in the Big Book. A path is just that: a path.
There is no one there on the path to direct you. God
may be there, but you won't see Him. The path which
worked for Bill W. was trying to help other suffering
alcoholics. Dr. Silkworth told Bill the best way to
help others, by sharing his own story. Bill had to search
for alcoholics to help. You know where to find them;
at meetings. You can best help others by listening to
them. Listen to all who share, without distraction or
judgement. You can help other alcoholics by listening,
and also will help yourself by what Bill called self-forgetting. You may have to do a little research to
find an AA group where you fit. Some meetings are just
social gatherings and some are just "off the wall". It
should not be that way but it is what it is.
You may know that just before the Big Book went to
the printers, the word directions was changed to path.
Alcoholics like me do not respond positively to
directions or instructions. An attractive path is almost
always followed by an alcoholic sufferer. Be that path
for another sufferer. Avoid that first drink as if it
were the worst poison. It is! ANONYMOUS

Step 11

Step 11

Sought through prayer and meditation to improve our conscience contact with God as we understood him, praying only for knowledge of his will for us and the power to carry that out.

This is my experience with step 11:
In the big book, on page 86 it says “When we retire at night, we constructively review our day. Were we resentful, selfish, dishonest or afraid?(just like step 4) Do we owe an apology? (just like step 9) Have we kept something to ourselves which should be discussed with another person at once? (just like step 5) Were we kind and loving toward all? What could we have done better? Were we thinking of ourselves most of the time? ( self-centeredness like in step 3) or were we thinking of what we could do for others………( like step 12)……….
On awakening lets us think of about the 24 hours ahead. We consider our plans for the day. (I take time to ponder may days plans) Before we begin, we ask God to direct our thinking, especially asking that it be divorced form self-pity, dishonest or self-seeking motives. Under these conditions we can employ our mental faculties with assurance, for after all God gave us brains to use. Our thought-life will be placed on a much higher plane when our thinking is cleared of wrong motives. ( I believe how I think is how I act, so if my thinking is good, my actions will be good)
If circumstances warrant, we ask our wives or friends to join us in morning meditation…………….there are many helpful books also……….be quick to see where religious people are right. Make use of what they offer.
As we go through the day we pause, when agitated or doubtful, and ask for the right thought or action. We constantly remind ourselves we are no longer running the show, humbly saying to ourselves many times each day “Thy will be done.” We are then in much less danger or excitement, fear, anger, worry, self-pity, or foolish decision. We become much more efficient. We do not tire so easily, for we are not burning up energy foolishly as we did when we were trying to arrange life to suit ourselves…………………
We alcoholics are undisciplined. So we let God discipline us in the simple way we have just outlined. But this is not all. There is action and more action. “Faith without works is dead.” The next chapter is entirely devoted to step twelve.”
Step 11 gives me a precise plan of attack for each day. It tells me what to do at night, in the morning, and for what comes up in between. This is what I try to practice daily as my 11 step. It truly taught me how to live a day at a time.

Thanks for reading.


cheers for that! Your post has brightened my day and thus i can safely make a comment


I cant get enough of this blog. Sorry i have not commented til now, but im lazy. Just wanted to eventually say thank you.

Step 10

This is my experience with step 10
Step 10: continued to take personal inventory and when we were wrong promptly admitted it.
I should start by talking a little about step 4, which is where I first learned to inventory. I have heard it said that 4 and 10 are not related because when you read them, 4 says moral inventory and 10 says personal inventory. I have come to believe that Bill, like most good authors uses different words or phrases to write about the same thing. The perfect example is on page 64 of the BB, Bill writes, “ Therefore, we started upon a personal inventory. This was Step Four.” After reading this I feel he is talking about the same format.

Now on page 84 he says, step 10 suggest we continue to take personal inventory and continue to set right any new mistakes as we go along. We vigorously commenced this way of living as we cleaned up the past……….. Our next function is to grow in understanding and effectiveness. This is not an overnight matter. It should continue for our lifetime. To me this means I immediately begin to practice a daily inventory and continue that practice one day at a time for the duration of my life.
Then I think he describes steps 4 through 9 and 12. Bill writes, continue to watch for selfishness, dishonesty, resentment, and fear.(step 4) When these crop up, we ask God at once to remove them(step 6 & 7). We discuss them with someone immediately (step 5) and make amends quickly if we have harmed anyone(step 8 & 9). Then we resolutely turn our thoughts to someone we can help(step 12). Love and tolerance of others is our code.

He then talks about how sanity has returned, we react sanely and normally. That’s great news to me! Then the not so good news. Bill talks about resting on our laurels and that what we really have is a daily reprieve contingent on our spiritual condition. To me that means I won’t stay sober today based on the work I did yesterday. I have to work daily. It’s like riding a bike uphill. When you stop peddling, you coast a very short distance, then you stop, then you roll backwards until you fall over.
Then Bill states what I call the tenth step prayer,” How can I best serve Thee-Thy will (not mine) be done.” Bill says these thought must go with us constantly. He then explains how to use our will.

Then he says,” If we have carefully followed directions, we have begun to sense the flow of his spirit into us…………But we must go further and that means more action.

I am grateful that when I came to AA I was taken through the steps using the Big Book as a guide. I was taught to read pages 84-88 on a daily bases as my 10 and 11 step. I know there is a lot of ways to work our program, I found following the directions in the Big Book for me is the best way to work the program of AA.

This is my experience with step 10, thanks for reading.

Step 9

Step 9 “Made direct amends to such people wherever possible, except when to do so would injure them or others. “

First, a definition of amends is to change for the better and also to put right. To me an amend is much more than an apology. An amend is to repair damage.

On page 76 of the BB it says “Now we go out to our fellows and repair the damage done in the past………….Remember it was agreed at the beginning we would go to any length for victory over alcohol.

Page 77 “Our real purpose is to fit ourselves to be of maximum service to God and our fellows……….Under no condition to we criticize such a person or argue. Simply tell him that we will never get over our drinking until we have done our utmost to straighten out our past. We are there to sweep off our side of the street………his faults are not discussed. We stick to our own…………
Most alcoholics owe money. We do not dodge our creditors……arranging the best deal we can we let these people know we are sorry…….”

Page 83 “A remorseful mumbling that we are sorry won’t fit the bill at all… we clean house with the family, asking each morning in meditation that our creator show us the way of patience, tolerance, kindliness, and love……. The spiritual life is not a theory, we have to live it…….
If we are painstaking about this phase of our development, we will be amazed before we are halfway through……….
Are these extravagant promises? We think not………they will always materialize if we work for them.”

Obviously there is more to step nine than the few lines written here. I think the bottom line is I am repairing the damage I have caused in the past to put myself in a position to be helpful. When it comes to money, I feel if I am smart enough to steal a million dollars, now that I am sober, I am smart enough to start paying back a million dollars.

I have to consider other parties involved in my amends. I need to check that I am not saving myself at someone else’s expense. If they will be hurt, I should not make the amend.
Simple, but hard to do. I had to remember many times, that I agreed I would go to any length for sobriety.

This is a short post of my experience with step nine as taken out of the book Alcoholics Anonymous. This is my experience only.


Joined: 2012-03-04

Don’t like Big Book study? Try one of Dr. Bob’s spokes, any one you fancy. Then as you take the steps yourself, they’ll melt away those preconceived ideas and stubbornly adhered-to opinions. When this happens, you’ll be nice and relaxed and tolerant about all the other ways alcoholics find to take the steps; even the weird ones. This is of course, excellent news. (Well, it worked out that way for me)

"On Cultivating Tolerance” by Dr. Bob. AA Grapevine Editorial, July 1944:

“During nine years in A.A. I have observed that those who follow the Alcoholics Anonymous program with the greatest earnestness and zeal, not only maintain sobriety, but often acquire finer characteristics and attitudes as well. One of these is tolerance. Tolerance expresses itself in a variety of ways: in kindness and consideration toward the man or woman who is just beginning the march along the spiritual path; in the understanding of those who perhaps have been less fortunate in educational advantages, and in sympathy toward those whose religious ideas may seem to be at great variance with our own. I am reminded in this connection of the picture of a hub with its radiating spokes. We all start at the outer circumference and approach our destination by one of many routes.

To say that one spoke is much better than all the other spokes is true only in the sense of its being best suited to you as an individual. Human nature is such that without some degree of tolerance, each one of us might be inclined to believe that we have found the best or perhaps the shortest spoke. Without some tolerance we might tend to become a bit smug or superior--which of course is not helpful to the person we are trying to help, and may be quite painful or obnoxious to others. No one of us wishes to do anything which might act as a deterrent to the advancement of another--and a patronizing attitude can readily slow up this process.

Tolerance furnishes, as a by-product, a greater freedom from the tendency to cling to preconceived ideas and stubbornly adhered-to opinions. In other words it often promotes an open-mindedness which is vastly important--in fact a prerequisite to the successful termination of any line of search, whether it be scientific or spiritual.
These, then, are a few of the reasons why an attempt to acquire tolerance should be made by each one of us.”

Dr. Bob of Akron

Questions and answers on sponsorship:

Joined: 2012-02-23
re spokes

When dr bob wrote "program" what is he refering to?


I think method or technique would be better than
using the word "program". Rose

Step 8

Step 8

This is my experience with step 8. On page 76 of the book “Alcoholics Anonymous’, it states: “Now we need more action, without which we find that faith without works is dead. Let’s look at steps 8 & 9. We have a list of all persons we have harmed and to whom we are willing to make amends, we made it when we took inventory.

In my experience, the BB is telling me to make my amends according to the people I listed in my 4th step inventory. It’s my understanding that I make amends for the “my part” column, or the 4th column in my 4th step inventory. That’s the part where I listed my mistakes as selfish, self-seeking, dishonest, and afraid. Nothing more, nothing less.

At this point in the AA program as laid out in the Big Book, I am really starting to see how each step affects another. If I had never taken the 1st step and admitted I am an alcoholic, I would never have found the strength and willingness to take step 2 and so on up to step 8.

Laying aside all the talk of willingness, open-mindedness, and strength, if I had not taken step 4 as outlined in the BB I would be in a pickle right now. How could I use the list of names from my inventory, if I have not taken it? More importantly, I would not know that I was making amends for selfish, self-seeking, dishonest, and fear based acts.

I know it sounds too simply to be true, but it is. I also have to remember that this is the way it was outlined in the BB for a reason. It is a simple guide to work through the steps.

I have to keep in mind that If I am doing these steps my own way, that I am doing these steps my own way! That’s how I wound up in AA to begin with. I had a living problem and used alcohol to solve my living problem.

This is only my experience with step 8, take it or leave it. That’s the great part of only sharing my own experience. It’s my experience, you choose anyway you like to work the steps.

Thanks for reading.

Step 8

I think I will leave it. I believe "more has been revealed" since the Big Book was written in 1939 when Bill W. was only four years sober. (At four years sober I could
barely tie my own shoe laces). The 12&12 was written in
the late 1940's and was printed in 1953. I trust that in
another decade a lot more was revealed by additional
experience. I will go with the 12&12. ANONYMOUS

I think Bill & the early

I think Bill & the early timers learned a lot in that decade & outlined a practical program for living in the "12&12".


That's for sure. The way of life offered by the 12&12 is clear,concise & has kept me sober & happy for more then 20 years. My first 10-12 years were spent doing just enough service to stay free from the desire to drink.
lil ricky


Step 8 doesn't even get a line in the BB,but in the 12&12 it says,this is a Step we can get better & better at,but never completely finish.

Joined: 2012-02-23
re 8

When u get time, crack open ur BB and take a look at step 8. it says something along the lines of we have a list. We made it when we took inventory.

Good luck

Step 8

It doesn't get a line....

Joined: 2012-05-02
Step 8

I found that when I tried to do things my own way I made a mess of my life. Once I committed my will to God and let him take over I found change was possible. I am not able to live life through his power. This is the only way it is possible to live the twelve steps. This is the way to positive change in my life. I need to change my fundamental thinking and way of doing things to stay sober.


Step 7

“Humbly asked Him to remove our shortcomings”

I found my shortcomings during my personal inventory in step 4. The 4th column (my part). My shortcomings are selfish, self-seeking, dishonesty, and fear.

(Big Book page 76) When ready, I said something like this: “My Creator, I am now willing that you should have all of me, good and bad…………………………………………We have then completed step 7.

Meister Eckhart said it this way,” nature abhors a vacuum. So empty yourself of self and you automatically fill with God. This is called “spirituality by subtraction”. Out with the old, in with the new.

Very simple. This is my experience with step 7. I knew I had completed it, because I was willing to take the action required in step 8.

Thanks for reading, and again, this is only my experience with step 7, take it or leave it.


Bet you missed some.

Let Go And Let God

When dealing with other members of my homegroup, I tend to be angry and misunderstand what they are trying to tell me. Sometimes, what I think are my beliefs are just a form of delusion that I can get my own way. Fighting other people in the program isn't the answer.

When conflicts arise in my homegroup right before a meeting lately, I run away and say to my husband, who is the GSR, to immediately fulfill my wishes and take me home. Then when my sponsor gets wind of it I feel like she is attacking me. I put the problems on msyelf no one else.

I am finding it much easier right now to just suit up and keep my mouth shut and hear from others what they have to say. This shows maturity and respect in a loving caring way that i feel is demostrating to others through my actions that I am no better or worse than them.

I am then saying through my actions when I can zip my lip when in times of doubt hey, I am letting go and letting god and practicing these steps to the best of my ability.

Is is through hard knocks and gratitude tonight that I can sit here and say that i am slowly learning the little things that my higher power teaches me through my homegroup. I wished that I wouldn't have been so closed minded six years ago. But hey, at least I can say that my higher power does love me through my homegroup and at any other meeting i might attend.


Joined: 2012-03-04

Don’t like Big Book study? Try the Norman Y. way:

‘I never read a word in A.A.’ he said. ‘You don’t have to read. You don’t have to have all these pamphlets they put out. You can learn to live this program by learning to think. A.A. is a wonderful thing to know and apply’ he said, ‘- but in your life. You’ve got to live it out in the street. You see somebody having a little problem, help them, no matter who they are. That’s A.A.” (Norman Y.) (Extract from Dr. Bob and The Good Old Timers p 250)

Not all sponsors are teacher/preacher sponsors. So you don’t have to have one of those if you don’t want to. If you like, you can just have some good AA friends instead. (AA sponsors). You don’t have to carry the message of the Big Book by spouting quotes. You can communicate the AA message of sobriety instead. In your own language of the heart, like “Good Old Timer” Norman. Norman joined AA in 1939.

Questions and answers on sponsorship:

Joined: 2012-01-18

You seem to like reading and quoting the old oldtimers to back up your arguments. Are you willing to read "How It Worked" the story of Clarence S.? (free download, just 'Google' the title) Especially read Appendix E on page 244.
Clarence got sober in February, 1938.

Joined: 2012-03-04

Thank you for taking the time to reply. No, I don’t particularly like quoting old timers, but with all this myth and misrepresentation about AA history in outside published literature and on the internet, I feel that quoting Conference approved AA literature has now become a necessary aspect to writing in the Grapevine magazine and forum; in order to provide some balance to such misrepresentation. Otherwise AA is in danger of loosing sight of its program and therefore in turn, its good public relations and members. Quoting from Conference approved AA literature shows up the many individual opinions that were around in A.A. in the 1940s, and none is more special than any other. I think it is important to distinguish what were individual opinions or local group practices and what was and is now overall AA policy. Quoting Conference approved AA literature might inspire people to read it. It also sparks a healthy, lively debate and keeps AA Tradition alive.

Here’s another old timer quote; his remembering of 1942:

“…Most of us in Akron didn’t like all this praying” said Oscar, “We had enough of it in the Oxford Group. I still don’t like praying in A.A. I don’t like the Serenity Prayer. New York brought it in, and we resented it. We thought they were bringing back the Oxford Group…” Oscar W. (Extract from Dr. Bob and the Good Old timers, p 271)

I read what you asked, including appendix E, an interpretation of the steps written by Clarence S, January 1972. Afterward, I thought of what Dr. Bob said of such interpretations:

“As finally expressed and offered, they [The Twelve Steps] are simple in language, plain in meaning. They are also workable by any person having a sincere desire to obtain and keep sobriety. The results are proof. Their simplicity and workability are such that no special interpretations, and certainly no reservations, have ever been necessary.” (Extract from Dr. Bob and the Good Old Timers p 227)

The “How it worked” book is for me, a classic example of deviation from Tradition Six, where problems of money property and prestige are diverting us from our primary purpose. Too many alcoholics are seeking personal distinction or are making money out of A.A. and in so doing turning it into a cult-like religion. The adulation of personalities before principles is a process corroding the fellowship’s spiritual foundation of humility in Tradition Twelve. Tradition Four (long form) tells me that if ever I wanted to write a book which might affect AA as a whole, then I would consult with the General Service Board before publication. Tradition One would tell me to swallow my pride and throw my book in the trash if the trustees weren’t too keen on my glorious idea. Our common welfare should come first. Me second. (The Twelve Traditions (Long form) are in the Big Book appendix 1)

After digesting the appendix of this outside enterprise, I only got to chapter 9, the chapter where Clarence S is described as a prophet in his home town, followed by the biblical quote explaining a prophet is not without honor except in his own country. I had to stop. I couldn’t take it seriously after that. I laughed so much that I couldn’t even compose myself to write you this reply until now. The “Prophet” Clarence S!!! How high his pedestal, his disciples doeth build? For a moment, I had this wonderful vision of what AA could become in a couple of thousand years time, a bunch of alcoholics hanging around a shrine in Ohio, singing the psalms of Clarence, bright eyes skyward, eagerly waiting for their beloved prophet’s return.

I wouldn’t pay too much attention to what “the prophet” Clarence says or any other old timer for that matter, they were all just ex drunks with huge egos like me. Together though, I say they did make a fine group conscience with AA policy and Traditions; with a little help from something else, of course. Not to mention those oft’ forgotten non-alcoholic humans who manned the backup higher power generators in the Depts. of Psychiatry; Dr. Silkworth M.D., his accomplice “power-house” nurse Teddy, Dr. Harry Tiebut M.D. and others; standing by whenever the patients thought they were well enough to switch off the higher power and light up the fellowship with the emotional dynamite instead. Dangerous thing emotional dynamite, you need to put your charge in its right place, otherwise it can blow the whole thing. That’s why we’ve each been given a fire proof metal box called AA Traditions in which to keep our very own stick. You can read about “the prophet” Clarence S. in “Pass it On” and “Dr. Bob and the Good Old Timers” if you like, (Though note his title “prophet” is not used in these books). Apparently, “the prophet” was on a bit of a short fuse at times, clashed a lot with Bill W. I gather. No surprise there for me.

“..By 1942, Bill was not in such favour with Clarence and his faction in Cleveland as in earlier days. In the years to come, there were further clashes, over finances, policy, the start of the A.A. General Service Conference, and other matters. The criticism was directed more at Bill than Dr. Bob...” (Extract Dr. Bob and the Good Old Timers p 270)

“..I don’t know why we had that built-in animosity. Clarence didn’t like Bill and would cuss him out, so you can see my animosity came secondhand,..” (Oscar W.) (Dr. Bob and the Good Old Timers p 271)

In his book Mitchell K states that Clancy S was his sponsor. Neither Bill W. nor Dr. Bob were fans of sponsor worship and I was wondering where all this religious sponsor worship stuff and Bill W. denigration was coming from. Bill passed away in 1971, His old adversary Clancy writes his own interpretation in 1972. You might like to read appendix E:b, Alcoholics Anonymous Comes of Age pp 309-319. Knowing about my typical alcoholic “narcissistic ego-centric core” helps me understand the nature of ego deflation in depth in Step One, I know my ego comes back soon enough, once I stop applying the steps. Were all nuts aren’t we? We believe our own egos and just keep on denying it to ourselves, then delude ourselves that we’re being honest when we’re not.

All this diversion from principles to personalities reminds me of “Mad Mitch” a now deceased Lieutenant-colonel in the British army. (Don’t ask why, my head constantly pops full of random thoughts, sometimes sane, often quite bizarre). If you like, you can find out more about “Mad Mitch” by using the search terms “Mad Mitch Mitchell.” (Not to be confused with the author Mitchell K) You can also find out more about AA prophets in a minority report to conference, using the search terms: “AA minority report (GB) 2012” (AA prophets p 32) I suggest you read it, the AAs who compiled it did a good job, a well researched and compelling document. That’s just my opinion, though I wouldn’t take my self seriously.

Now I’m stuck with this crazy vision of “The Prophet” Clarence and Lt. Col. “Mad Mitch” Mitchell racing round and around the desert in a heavily armed 4x4, bagpipers-a-blowing and loudspeakers-a-preaching the book, as they go amidst their hot air with lots of explosions and incoming fire. (Not unlike the scene in my intergroup at the mo.) It’s going to cause me much mirth for the rest of life. And today, well, I haven’t laughed so much since yesterday, so thanks for giving me these thoughts!

For “power-house” nurse Teddy, see The Language of the Heart pp 156,176

Keep it Simple- Keep it Conference Approved


I always thought that mirth meant sadness. But I looked it
up and it means just the opposite. Again with the 24hr
book. This book was rejected by Bill W. and his friends
in 1953. I think the conference refused to accept it.
There were enough members interested in 1972 to again
bring it to the conference for approval or disapproval.
This was after Bill died in 1971. It was rejected again.
I am not a gambling person and never heard of
"I'll Have Another" since I left the barroom, but I would
wager that if this decision were brought to the conference
today, it would be accepted as conference approved literature, and by a significant majority. Alcoholics
Anonymous has changed at the core. We have changed from
a fellowship to a Fellowship. Today's AA is a TWELVE
STEP PROGRAM, only one among hundreds of such programs.
The suggested steps have become instructions.
The true method of attraction has been lost. We fail
most suffering alcoholics approaching us today. We must
return to the method of sharing what we do, and what
has happened to us, without implying that anyone
else do the same. And I keep beating that dead horse
hoping against hope that it will come alive again. We
could restore the effectiveness of the fellowship of
the 1970's. My saddest fear is that we will stumble
along spinning our wheels for several more decades
failing millions of suffering alcoholics and their
families, picking up a few, which will make it
appear that A.A. is alive and well. We ARE responsible
for the future of Alcoholics Anonymous. Let it begin
with us. ANONYMOUS

Joined: 2012-03-04
re: Mirth?

Thanks for your reply. If you are the “Caterwaller”, I gave you a belated reply to your Moment of Clarity Thank you post 2012- 04-15. (My reply: re: Thank you Submitted by anonymous on Tue, 2012-05-01 11:50.) I hope you read it, I agree with all you say. Underneath my mirth there is a great deal of sadness as to what has been happening in my intergroup. I agree we shall have to return to the simplicity of the program and this will need leadership of the type to withstand power-drivers otherwise there can be no authority in Tradition Two. Without this, the fellowship will go the same way as the Washingtonian movement. An apathetic or uniformed majority can be mistaken especially if a decision is based on popular demand, rather than on Traditions and Concepts. It ought to be remembered that without Traditions upon which to guide their decisions the popular demand of the Washingtonian movement’s group conscience led to its collapse. Relating to Tradition Two and Concepts V and IX, if AA is to continue without descending into anarchy, then more people need to speak up, because the power behind the expression of the group conscience needs always to be greater than an individual alcoholic’s power driven ego; and greater than power driven egos combining to form a tyranny of very small minorities invested with absolute power. People need to take their responsibility in knowing how to apply the Traditions and Concepts as part of their growth in recovery.

“…the greatest danger to democracy would always be the “tyranny of apathetic, self seeking, uniformed, or angry majorities….” (Concept V)
“ ..The well-heard minority, therefore, is our chief protection against an uninformed, misinformed, hasty or angry majority…” (Concept V)
Therefore a well heard minority, such as your self, is our chief protection against:
“…the even worse tyranny of very small minorities invested with absolute power.” (Concept V)
Concept V and IX pages 20 and 34:

re:re: mirth

The reason I keep harping on the 24 hour a day book,
is that my opinions changed dramatically when I finally
understood why this book is not considered appropriate
for Alcoholics Anonymous. For 35 years I insisted that
this book was appropriate and Bill had refused it
because it was not his own work. I felt that it was
just Bill's EGO wanting things his own way. I often
criticized Bill for not accepting that book when it
was offered to A.A. As of yet I don't know whether Richmond
Walker wanted money for the book or if he was going to give it to A.A. From what I have read about Richmond Walker, I
suspect that it was offered free of charge. It is a
wonderful book and has benefited many of us. But today I understand fully that the book is just too religious for
A.A. as a whole.
It beings me again to the advice given to Bill W.
in the spring of 1935 by Dr Silkworth. Dr. Silkworth had
worked for some forty years with very little success. But
the little doctor always held hope that someday, somehow
a solution to the alcoholics dilemma would be found. That
solution came through Bill W. A method was discovered through which most suffering alcoholics can be reached.
Due to the strange nature of the alcoholic, normal usual
methods just did not work. The alcoholic cannot be pushed
or prodded into sobriety, but he can be led. I believe
that God gave us that IDEA through his mercy. (but that is
really just my own opinion). The idea is to share with
other alcoholics exactly what I was like, and what happened
to me, my own story. If my own house is in order, hopefully
it will be attractive enough so that others will want what
I have. I must lose that patronizing attitude. No alcoholic
is going to listen to someone with a pious approach: Well,
if you want what I have you will have to do what I did, or
even worse, do as I say.
Alcoholics Anonymous needs to do a thorough inventory
of itself. We must admit our mistakes and correct them. It
will not be easy, but there are generations of alcoholics
who will need what A.A. can offer. It was effective for
over fifty years and can still be restored. If we don't
do it now It may become too late. I fear that it may
already be too late. Religion has really taken hold of
A.A. in the past thirty years. Bill warned us against
turning A.A. into a religion, but we have ignored that
warning. I keep thinking of the saying "you can't have
your cake and eat it, too". But in A.A. it seems that the
more we sacrifice, the more we will have. Everybody wins and
nobody has to lose. We can be all inclusive without
excluding a single alcoholic who is still suffering.
Pray in your own house of worship. Don't turn an A.A.
meeting into a prayer group. Stop the cult ritual of
chanting. Most of us seem to agree that chanting is, for
lack of a better word, stupid. It needs to be understood
that all alcoholics come into an AA meeting as absolute
equals. Oldtimers are not any better than newcomers. We
just got here sooner. We need the newcomer as much as he
may need us. No, he/she is not the most important person
in the room and it is harmful for us to tell her/him
they are most important. If you have read this far, thank
you. I just came from a disturbing meeting and couldn't

Rest easy,Pops. love,

Rest easy,Pops.

RE Very Good News

On page 249 of DR Bob and the Good Oldtimers, it says that norman was blind! of course he never read the book. It also says that in 1940, Norman had the book done in braille and sent out from Cleveland to other blind members.

For Norman, a man who never read the book himself, He sure did a lot of work to get it translated to Braille.

This is why I enjoy the BB so much. It's right there in black and white. If I am willing to do what it suggest, i will be happy, joyous, and free. Not restless, irritable, and discontent.

Joined: 2012-03-04
RE Very Good News....The odd thing is...

Thank you for your reply and for pointing out that Norman was Blind. I was wondering if anyone would notice. On page 250, "Dr. Bob and The Good Old Timers" it reads: “The odd thing is, Norman never read the Book himself.” I take this “odd thing” to mean that he never read the Big Book in Braille, despite him having arranged this to be done. It wouldn’t be the “odd thing” for a blind man not to read the standard Big Book, because he was in fact blind. But it would be the “odd thing” if he had it converted into Braille and then never read it himself; because then he could have read the Big Book in Braille if he wanted to. (That’s assuming he could read in Braille, but there again this would only be the “odd thing” if he could).

When reading a book, if I also try reading the meaning between the lines of black and white, and the meaning of the text as a whole, then I have a better chance to catch the deeper meaning of things in the text that I might otherwise make hasty assumptions and conclusions about, or miss altogether, such as paradox. I gradually came to understand that though I read, sometimes I do not apprehend nor understand. I only think I understand. I also came to understand that the apparently opposing opinions which disagree when expressed in words can sometimes both be right because they are describing the same thing from different perspectives. This helps me to keep a sense of humor and not to get into so many heated arguments as I used to. What’s important to me in Norman’s story was his perception and attitude.

Thank You

Anyway you put it as long as we can remember our Primary purpose which is to carry the message to the alcoholic who still suffers, we are showing through our own actions every day how to work the steps. I have seen people put demand on others that they need to get the steps in a certain amount of time, I have seen people leave groups because through not being open-minded they have driven not only themselves but newcomers away as well.

Lately, I have been trying to practice the Steps and the Tradtions in every aspect of my life. It isn't easy but I think that we shouldn't judge others on how to work the steps unless we are willing to accept criticsm back. This is not a dictatorship, this is the Fellowship of AA and it stops beating when we show ignorance or intolerance towards anyone no matter who they are. It is everyone's responsiblity to carry the message through their own personal interpretations of the program. But at meetings we are united under one loving higher power who, shows us the way. Let's continue to remember that.

Patty B Literature Rep Beeville Texas

Joined: 2012-01-18

Perhaps there is a reason Norman Y. never read a word in AA. He was blind. and though he never read the Big Book, "Norman Y., the blind A.A., had the Big Book done in Braille in 1940 and sent out from the Cleveland Library to other blind members. "There were 19 of us corresponding back then," he said."
It seems some AAs, like some religious folks and politicians, like to take a sentence or two out of context to get a point across.

Joined: 2012-03-04

Thank you for your reply. Selecting a quote to support a point of view is common practice and can be constructive when careful thought is given to the meaning of the surrounding text from which it is taken. This is not the same thing as quoting out of context, whereby a quote is removed from its surrounding text in such a way as to distort its intended meaning. I don’t think my quote was out of context with its intended meaning; but this seems to be implied in your post. The fact Norman was blind does not devalue what he said, nor does it make what he said an exception to other AA members who are not blind. There are other alcoholics who have great disadvantages; educational or emotional, which limits their ability to read or study. In my early days of sobriety I was one of these. I was so emotionally mixed up at the time that I could barely read anything at all in the first few years. I was unable to hear much either, because I was so busy thought-talking to myself inside my head. I couldn’t listen to much of what the people outside were saying. My mind needed time to unravel its confusion.

You quoted two sentences in your post, which you then used to support a possible reason why Norman never read the Big Book, implying this was because he was blind. It appears to me that your use of these quotes is doing the very same thing as you think some AAs, religious folks and politicians do. Not included in your quotes is the sentence which reads “The odd thing is, Norman never read the Book himself.” (“Dr. Bob and the Good Old Timers” p 250) I take this “odd thing” to mean that Norman never read the Big Book after he had it converted into Braille; otherwise this wouldn’t be the “odd thing.” “You can learn to live this program by learning to think.” Norman said. From my experience I know this to be true. I had to learn to think before I could read. Remembering back to when I eventually did start reading, although I could see, hear and read, I often could only perceive what I wanted to perceive according my own personal beliefs and prejudices. I was blind to the rest, so I missed huge chunks of information. I then acted accordingly in ignorance without thinking. This faulty perception was one of the things I became aware of and needed to change in order for me to develop an open mind and learn.

I like to keep Appendix II of the Big Book to the forefront of my mind as this helps to remind me that there are many ways to interpret the concepts of a "spiritual experience", "spiritual awakening" and a "Power greater than ourselves" and for alcoholics to interpret the steps accordingly, to their own understanding. It also reminds me that I can also subconsciously close my mind and slip back into the arrogance of denial at any time without realizing it, no matter how long I have been sober.

“There is a principle which is a bar against all information, which is proof against all arguments and which cannot fail to keep a man in everlasting ignorance – that principle is contempt prior to investigation.” - Herbert Spencer
(Extract from Appendix II, Big Book)

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